# Pitbull scenario **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 1, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894 "2011-09-01T22:28:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sierra\_Indigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@Sierra\_Indigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sierra_Indigo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/101 "2011-09-06T22:50:45Z")
I’ve seen an Alaskan Malamute chew limbs off trees, rip irrigation pipe out of the ground and do significant damage to the frame of a bicycle that he was carting around the back yard as a chew toy. Yay! Throwing out anecdotes is fun! ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/102 "2011-09-06T22:57:46Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > I hesitate to post this because it’s fairly sensational - bear in mind that the pit bull here is quite a bit smaller than the GSD and the Rottweiler is the largest dog of the three, so of _course_ it’s going to have the hardest bite: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbwMs7cjK0Y](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbwMs7cjK0Y) > > Many working dogs and terriers - including JRTs, Airedales, Staffies, Filas, dogos, etc - are going to be quite game and determined when it comes to bite and hold. That’s attitude and breeding, not some inherent physical trait. > > Hardest biting dog I’ve ever known is my 25 lb JRT-cattle dog cross. She doesn’t know whether to herd things or kill them, LOL…she has competing breed traits going. And she is a hard, hard little dog. What do you mean by “hardest biting” and how did you determine that she was the champ? ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/103 "2011-09-06T23:01:50Z")
> [@Sierra\_Indigo](#): > > I’ve seen an Alaskan Malamute chew limbs off trees, rip irrigation pipe out of the ground and do significant damage to the frame of a bicycle that he was carting around the back yard as a chew toy. > > Yay! Throwing out anecdotes is fun! It is indeed; I know I enjoyed it. Obviously they are not conclusive in any sense, especially as on an internet forum one has no way to judge the reliability of the source. Given that this is IMHO, I don’t think they are out of place. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/104 "2011-09-06T23:26:46Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > What do you mean by “hardest biting” and how did you determine that she was the champ? Hardest biting = it took several years for her to learn discretion with her teeth, but she _has_ learned. I didn’t use the word “champ”; you did. So I am not sure what your question is, there. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/105 "2011-09-06T23:35:05Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > Hardest biting = it took several years for her to learn discretion with her teeth, but she _has_ learned. She’s almost five now and has managed exquisite control. > > I didn’t use the word “champ”; you did. So I am not sure what your question is, there. By discretion with her teeth, I mean not biting the crap out of me in agility training, specifically. This is not unusual with high-drive dogs, especially herding dogs (some of whom are bred to herd with their teeth, hence “heelers” as in nipping the heels.) ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/106 "2011-09-06T23:40:05Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > Hardest biting = it took several years for her to learn discretion with her teeth, but she _has_ learned. > > I didn’t use the word “champ”; you did. So I am not sure what your question is, there. I meant “champ” as in the hardest biting dog that you have known; ie Champion Hardbiter of all the dogs chiroptera has known. I just wasn’t sure whether you were talking biting discretion (as apparently you were) or actual force (in which case I was wondering how you determined it). ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/107 "2011-09-06T23:59:00Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > I meant “champ” as in the hardest biting dog that you have known; ie Champion Hardbiter of all the dogs chiroptera has known. > > I just wasn’t sure whether you were talking biting discretion (as apparently you were) or actual force (in which case I was wondering how you determined it). Yah, discretion. I’ve always said I would not own a terrier-type dog but I have to say this is one of the better dogs I’ve owned in my life. I’ve had Rottweilers since 1985 and I would say this little bitch is one of the highest prey-drive, hardest-hitting dogs I have ever owned. I have to add she is also _extremely_ gentle and sensitive around baby animals in the house, babies in general, and other dogs. But mice, strange cats, possums, squirrels, chipmunks, etc in her yard? Dead, shredded, eviscerated. She is a terrier through and through. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/108 "2011-09-07T00:17:18Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Wait a minute… > > So the domestic dog (including, I assume, all the yappy cat-sized ones) AVERAGES about 320 lb/inch… but this guy’s test showed a German Shepherd and a Pit Bull to measure quite a bit LOWER than average? With a Rott barely above average? What exactly is keeping the average up at 320 – a Bijon Frise?? > > Doesn’t that seem strange that they state the average as 320, yet this guy’s test seems to be consistently scoring the dogs with powerful bites lower than average? > > I’m not sure what his methodology (seems force would vary quite a bit anyway, depending on how aroused the dog was) was, but these results don’t really seem in accordance with common sense or anecdotal experience (^^I’m telling you, I saw a Pit chew a tree in half!). I didn’t see a link to the actual study on that page…did I miss one? True. It also doesn’t add up that the average is supposedly 320, yet: > [@](#): > > Dr. Barr states that as far as he knows, the PSI tested in the Rott is the > highest on record for any domestic canine. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Blue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/51bf81/32.png) [@Big\_Blue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Blue)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/109 "2011-09-07T00:23:53Z")
I don’t think this news story was posted here yet. Might as well stir the pot so for what it is worth, here it is: Friday, September 2, 2011 Philadelphia Woman Fatally Mauled By Pit Bulls: > **[Woman Mauled by Pit Bulls: Medical Examiner](https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/pit-bull-dog-death-philly/1902467/)** > > An autopsy confirms a woman was mauled to death by her pet pit bulls in hunting Park Tuesday night. So that make two deaths in one week, right? ---
**Author:** ![Feyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/fbc32d/32.png) [@Feyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feyrat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/110 "2011-09-07T00:28:13Z")
> [@Big\_Blue](#): > > I don’t think this news story was posted here yet. Might as well stir the pot so for what it is worth, here it is: > > Friday, September 2, 2011 Philadelphia Woman Fatally Mauled By Pit Bulls: > > [Woman Mauled by Pit Bulls: Medical Examiner – NBC10 Philadelphia](http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/weird/Pit-Bull-Dog-Death-Philly-128717748.html) > So that make two deaths in one week, right? Those dogs again are identified without any sort of picture or proof that they are in fact pit bulls. Also, they fit the profile in the earlier-linked CDC report - they were already aggressive, poorly-controlled, clearly untrained, and allowed to run loose in a pack. It does not make two deaths in one week via pit bulls, as in the story with the infant that is definitely a mis-identified dogs, as American Pit Bull Terriers do not reach 100 pounds, as has also been previously noted. It has also been repeatedly noted that the media mis-identifies any dog involved in an attack as a pit bull, often for the purpose of sensationalizing. I will never say that a pit bull cannot, in fact, maul and kill a person. Almost any dog can, as shown by the earlier link to a death via Jack Russel. However, the link in these cases is usually an owner who has not bothered to control or train or contain their dogs than any particular breed. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/111 "2011-09-07T02:38:44Z")
> [@Jennshark](#): > > …it’s the owner that scares me and I’m not taking chances that the dog lives up to it’s fighting appearance. +1 Pets… all pets… live up to and down to their owners. I’d take a look at the owner when they were presenting their pet. Would I see them happy and playful and loving with their pet? Or would I see even the slightest hint of smug punk-ass 'tude crossing their face like a 10 year old playing with with a slingshot or a flip-knife? People can and do hide a lot about who they really are to others at work; some are incredibly good at it. But pets don’t fall for human masks or games or BS. My answer is that I’d watch the owner around that pitbull. When I saw his/her mask slip (and I would), I’d know if my kids were safe or not. ---
**Author:** ![Elysium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@Elysium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysium)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/112 "2011-09-07T13:00:33Z")
I voted stay and be on guard. But I would have voted the same if it were any dog I was unfamiliar with. Even dogs that are “good with kids” should be watched and kids that young should never be unsupervised with animals. An animal will lash out if a kid handles it incorrectly, and my kid is still learning how to pet nicely and not pull on animals, so I’m very careful of him with pets. I have also worked with dogs (vet tech) and I am usually more wary of breeds like West Highland Terriers or Dalmatians than I am with bully breeds or other large dogs. Now my son has gotten along just fine with big dumb mutts, Bostons, Boxers/Bull Mastiffs, and Golden Retrievers, and Labradoodles, but I’m always on my guard just in case he gets rough or the dog starts sending “go away” signals. ---
**Author:** ![ecseas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ecseas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ecseas)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/113 "2011-09-07T13:18:42Z")
> [@sparky\_1](#): > > If it was me, with small children, then I would leave. A Pitbull is as dangerous as the owner is. I’d much prefer to be around a well trained Pitbull then a out of control Labrador. But no, Pitbull’s look scary, so they must be bad! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_First_Time)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/114 "2011-09-07T16:43:02Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > The public perception is due in part to bad press and sensationalism, people misstating what breed was involved in a reported attack, e.g. “it was a pit bull kind of dog” might really mean anything, and by the one actual mark against them in such questions, they are a very strong breed and after years of selective breeding they have a tendency to fight until the finish with no fear of injury. > > In other words their bad rap is 99% undeserved. The rest comes from the fact that when they are abused, cornered, left on a short chain by taunting kids, etc. and they do attack, its an attack that is more likely to make the news and animal control statistics. Actually, the bad rap has been earned honestly. Pit bulls are over represented when it comes to dogs killing people and inflicting serious bites. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/115 "2011-09-07T17:07:49Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](#): > > Actually, the bad rap has been earned honestly. Pit bulls are over represented when it comes to dogs killing people and inflicting serious bites. That assumes that the dogs in question really were pit bulls. The studies above show that people are awful at identifying dog breeds, especially pits. You’re assuming that the reports are true when those very reports are in question. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/116 "2011-09-07T17:25:52Z")
The pro pitters on this board have been successful in convincing me that pits aren’t the killing machines I used to hear/read they are. But the one argument that has never convinced me is the "it probably wasn’t a pit, people are bad at properly identifying pits’ argument. If the owners, victims, animal control, police, etc are all saying ‘pit’ then I will go ahead and accept that in those cases, like the linked article, it is propably a pit. I have tried that web page that shows that a schlub like me can’t properly identify a pit, but that is different than the people involved in a fatal mauling not being able to identify the dog. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/117 "2011-09-07T17:34:05Z")
> [@Long\_Time\_First\_Time](#): > > Actually, the bad rap has been earned honestly. Pit bulls are over represented when it comes to dogs killing people and inflicting serious bites. Look, read the thread (and search the SDMB for previous threads) before reiterating a tired assertion that _scientists have officially said is false_. Don’t ask me for a cite, _I’ve already provided it._ I wonder if people finding pit bull attack reports in the media and bringing them here to post them read the thread before winging it – especially post 57. [QUOTE=me] Regarding media bias, the words “pit bull” sell papers. The National Canine Research Council has a case study [warning: .pdf]. Short version: 4 separate dog bite incidents, all serious enough to require hospitalization, were reported in the media over the same 4-day span. Three of these attacks – including the lone human fatality – received a total of four press stories between them, all in local media only. The fourth attack, involved “dogs reported to be pit bulls,” but was not fatal to a human. This incident was reported in over two hundred and thirty articles in national and international newspapers, as well as major television news networks, including CNN, MSNBC and FOX. [/QUOTE] Here’s another goodie from post 57: [QUOTE=me] I’m not denying an APBT is stronger and somewhat larger than a JRT. It might come as a surprise, however, to note that there’s at least one case of a Jack Russell Terrier killing a human being, Justin Mozer. (More detail here.) [/QUOTE] Dogs of _any_ breed can harm or kill. Infants and small children are the most vulnerable, for a variety of reasons. Possibly also our human practice of washing all the scent off infants is also a factor when a family dog doesn’t recognize an infant as a pack member. I am repeating myself, and repeating information easily available on the web from reputable dog sites AND the government, but…scientists at CDC have _expressly_ said that the number of individual dogs of any given breed cannot be known, so generalizations that “one breed is over-represented” are false from the get-go. And that’s aside from the bite-reporting and breed-identification problems already established. We’ve seen evidence in this thread of posters citing as a pit bull attack an attack involving a “100 pound” dog – since pit bulls don’t get that big, that’s evidence right there that even SDMB posters can mis-identify breeds. Quoting from an esteemed source – our old friend, post 57! – here are some common factors involved in fatal dog attacks: [QUOTE=me] As a generalization, fatal dog attacks tend to have several common factors: [ul] [li]Unsupervised child(ren)[/li][li]Un-neutered male dog(s)[/li][li]Chained or tethered dog(s)[/li][li]Territoriality – when someone ignores a dog’s warnings and intrudes on turf a dog is trained or expected to defend[/li][/ul] Some experts have described that last issue as one of “resident” vs “family” dogs – a resident dog is present on the property but not routinely socialized as a family member (typically a guard dog or one used in breeding). [/QUOTE] When I say these are common factors, I am perhaps being more cautious in my use of language than is warranted – _almost all_ fatal attacks one reads about feature one, and most several, of these factors. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/118 "2011-09-07T17:37:11Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > If the owners, victims, animal control, police, etc are all saying ‘pit’ then I will go ahead and accept that in those cases, like the linked article, it is propably a pit. If you read the articles carefully, you’ll find that it often isn’t the owners or animal control identifying the breeds. Victims and police aren’t notably better at identifying breeds than random people off the street. Newspapers and TV stations know that “pit bull attacks child” gets eyeballs, so that’s what they go with. Read what the CDC said about the study that they backed off from. ID’ing breeds involved in attacks is a problem because the people claiming to identify the breed don’t know what they are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/119 "2011-09-07T17:39:34Z")
An energetic dog doesn’t have to be aggressive to harm a small child. Simple playfulness can knock a 6-year old flying. Is the dog bouncy and exuberant at visitors, or does it pretty much ignore them? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894/120 "2011-09-07T17:42:00Z")
I missed this the first time around. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > That’s ridiculous. I mean the classification, not your post. I’m not sure why that’s “ridiculous,” it’s a widely accepted understanding. Most people say that “Pit Bull” is not a breed, but a grouping of closely-related breeds. A notable exception is Diane Jessup, a well-known author and breeder, who maintains that “pit bull” exclusively refers to the American Pit Bull Terrier. But I seldom see people expressly agree with that. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > Funnily enough, when I see threads (here and elsewhere) where people end up defending pit-bulls or staffies, they very often end up having a go at JRTs instead. This is annoying - saying one breed is horrible is now better than saying another breed is horrible. I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing, btw! Yeah, I’m not having a go at JRTs; I was using that example to support the “ANY dog, even an unlikely-seeming breed, can kill if you’re idiot enough to leave an infant unattended with a predator” thesis. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > the idea that staffies are much more people-friendly than dog-friendly isn’t completely without basis. Concur. Reasonable and responsible people are aware of the possibility of dog aggression – very different from human aggression – in any “fighting” breed. edited to add: Lately, it seems like chows getting singled out instead of JRTS. I don’t know chows from personal experience, but I’m inclined to think they’re no more guilty than the other breeds we’ve seen accused. I’m against Breed-Specific Legislation, not just Anti-Pit-Bull Legislation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbull-scenario/594894.md?page=7)