Pitbull scenario

[rhubarbarin]

I’d do the same I would with any dog, of any breed. Keep a close eye on the situation and ask the owners to put the dog away if the children in the house are bothering it or the dog seems stressed out.

Most of my best dog friends are pitbulls, living right outside Philadelphia as I do and hanging out with a lot of people who do dog rescue. I know a grand total of one pit with people-aggression issues and he has never once bitten or tried to bite a human being (his owner is excellent though are preventing any scenario where he might be induced to bite). Any well-socialized pitbull is as sweet as most Labradors with humans (but not as dumb, clumsy, drooly or ball-obsessed). It’s other dogs that tend to be a problem with pitbulls.

As others have said the ‘locking jaws’ are a silly myth. Pits are strong, muscular, but medium size (30-60 lbs) dogs with strong jaws and necks and good-size teeth, but they are not supernatural monsters and do not commit murder with every bite. One of my best friends does dog rescue and also owns 3 pits and 2 rott mixes (so there are often upwards of 8 dogs in her house). She’s dealt with many a dog fight in her household and hasn’t had many serious problems or injuries. Her dogs sometimes get snappy with each other and the injuries that result are mostly cuts to the head, neck and ears - very few puncture wounds, even small ones. IME most wounds in dog fights are slices from incidental contact of snarling teeth being flailed around while both dogs scream and yell in each other’s faces and try to scare the other into backing down.

I confess I have a small bias against toy and miniature poodles. I’ve known way too many that were severe biters (two of my friends have scars on their faces from childhood mini poodle bites). So if there were a little poodle instead of a pitbull, I’d be much more on my toes!

[lindsaybluth]

@CrazyCatLady

I’ve worked with animals for over 10 years doing very unpleasant things to them, and pit bulls are the one breed that hasn’t tried to bite me.

I too have been attacked twice and cornered many times by a variety of ill behaved dogs, none of them a “bully” breed. Most of them “good natured” family dogs that were 1) poorly bred and 2) totally un-exercised and 3) not trained.

Sigh. Here we go again. I hope Sailboat comes in, fighting the good fight…

[Mosier]

If I know and trust the owner, I wouldn’t make a fuss. I would certainly be on guard though, and ready to scold the kid or the dog at any moment if either of them does something stupid to the other. Everybody thinks their dog wouldn’t ever hurt anybody, but not everybody is correct in that assertion. To not be on guard around strange dogs is pretty much asking for trouble.

I have met several pit bulls that play too rough, get too eager with their playing, and don’t realize their own strength. I also have experienced the aftermath of pit bull aggression, when two of them jumped a fence to kill two dogs in my grandparents’ back yard. Yes, the owner was to blame. Wouldn’t have happened if they were mini poodles, though.

[blondebear]

I don’t have kids, but if I did I wouldn’t expose them to a pit bull I knew nothing about. Hell, I’m scared of pit bulls myself, and I love dogs in general.

[TruCelt]

I would be on guard as I would with any dog my child interacts with. Has nothing to do with the breed. Now, if they had a presa canario, I’d be outta there, for my own sake as much as Celtlings. And if any dog looks nervous or aggressive, either he goes to the back bedroom or we go home.

[Mosier]

@Feyrat

Then you are ignorant and should be better informed. Pit bulls are no more dangerous than any other breed.

Maybe an “of similar size and strength” should have been added at the end, there. As it reads now, that statement doesn’t make any sense.

THIS is the correct response. Frankly, I’m much more nervous with children around my poodle-mix, or seeing children around spaniels (which are very snappy dogs) than pits.

I have also observed more snappiness from a mini-poodle I owned than from most other dogs. It doesn’t surprise me that they’re more intolerant of strange people. Thing is, it couldn’t have hurt a child too badly because of it’s sheer size. And, it wouldn’t have tried to kill anything, ever. Pit bulls don’t just nip or bite and then it’s over. If they’re biting or fighting, it’s with the intent to finish the fight with the object of its aggression dead.

The question should be, has the dog been properly exposed to, and socialized with, children. And frankly, the question should also be - how well socialized are your children to dogs?

I agree entirely. My 5 year old son is used to being bigger and stronger than a dog. He can evict a dog from a room if he wants to play there and the dog annoys him. He can lift and carry the dog without much trouble. Around a strange pit bull, I’d be much more worried that my son would antagonize the dog than the other way around.

The reason you hear all those horror stories is just that - they’re horror stories. The public perception of pit bulls is entirely created and fostered by the media. 90% of the “pit bull” attacks are another breed entirely.

Disagree. The breed is pretty broadly defined. If you want to narrowly define pit bulls, and exclude everything except the pure-bred definition you choose, then you can probably justify making that statement. By the same logic, you can argue that pit bulls don’t really exist at all. That’s not the reality of the situation though, and you don’t get to narrow the definition of a breed just to make a point.

Just for curiosity though, what breed do you think most often gets mistaken for a pit bull in these reports?

I used to do dog rescue and have worked closely with animal control for many years. As any active animal control agent, and most of them will tell you a call to collect a stray or abused pit doesn’t worry them. Calls to collect German Shepherds, Chows and Shar-peis are what they dread, because someone’s going to get bitten.

Agreed. I don’t have experience with animal control, but I know plenty of dogs of those breeds. Shar-peis in particular can be nasty little things, while pit bulls are generally cooperative with people.

Pits have been bred in the past to be dog aggressive. Not people aggressive. In fact, in traditional pit fighting, the handlers are in the ring with the dogs, and break them apart by hand using a “breaking stick.” You could not do that with a dog who would be likely to turn on you when overstimulated.

Sure you could. Once a dog has decided to submit to a particular human, there’s no breed that would then be likely to attack that human. You never, ever hear of police dogs turning on their handlers, even though most of those dogs are German Shepherds which, according to your earlier comment, are virtually guaranteed to bite a strange human.

People-aggressive pits are the result abuse, or of terrible/careless breeding in response to the media mythology. It’s a vicious circle - because the dogs are now perceived as dangerous, they’re collected by the type of people most likely to try and mold the dog into exactly that.

That’s the thing about breeding, though. Carelessly/stupidly breeding pit bulls in an attempt to make them more aggressive toward people actually happens. Pit bulls are exceptionally stupid, emotional dogs that currently make good pets for lots of people, but if the breeders and tough-guys get their way they can legitimately bring the reality closer to the perception.

[Feyrat]

@Mosier

Pit bulls are exceptionally stupid, emotional dogs that currently make good pets for lots of people, but if the breeders and tough-guys get their way they can legitimately bring the reality closer to the perception.

Gotta disagree with you on the first part. Out of the five pits I’ve owned, only one was dumb - and he was half Lab, so I attribute that to the Lab side. My friend and I do competitive obedience, Rally and Agility with our current pits. Pits are extremely smart, very willing dogs for the most part.

The end, I agree entirely on. It’s so sad.

[moi]

My reaction has nothing to do with the breed. Kids should always be supervised when interacting with a new dog, especially if the dog is bigger than them.

Like others in this thread, I’m much more wary of chows and poodles than I am of pit-bull-type dogs, at least until the dog gives me reason to behave otherwise. I’ve worked in kennels and been around a variety of dogs (I grew up showing dogs) and currently own a rescued pit mix. She’s only growled a two people in the years we’ve owned her: once, a man approaching me after dark and our neighborhood pedophile. I hold her leash a little tighter when I’m walking past kids, but that’s because the li’l ones in our neighborhood are prone to running up and hugging her and I don’t want her to knock them down.

@Mosier

Disagree. The breed is pretty broadly defined. If you want to narrowly define pit bulls, and exclude everything except the pure-bred definition you choose, then you can probably justify making that statement. By the same logic, you can argue that pit bulls don’t really exist at all. That’s not the reality of the situation though, and you don’t get to narrow the definition of a breed just to make a point.

Just for curiosity though, what breed do you think most often gets mistaken for a pit bull in these reports?

Did you look at the breed test posted by Rhiannon8404 or this one? Even if you accept pit mixes as more pit than anything else (i.e. counting pit-lab mix attacks as pit bull attacks vs lab attacks), other breeds and mixes are pretty commonly IDed as pit bulls. I’d guess that boxers, mastiffs and bulldogs are the ones most commonly misidentified as pitties.

[Acid_Lamp]

@sparky_1

If it was me, with small children, then I would leave.

That is silly and irrational.

[Silver_Tyger]

@CrazyCatLady

I’ve worked with animals for over 10 years doing very unpleasant things to them, and pit bulls are the one breed that hasn’t tried to bite me. And not because I haven’t worked with many of them, either; one of my former practices had a huge percentage of pit patients because we were next to the projects and ghetto and a got most of the business from the local drug dealers and dog fighters. The thing you have to keep in mind is that your fighting breeds were bred to be aggressive toward other animals but docile toward humans, so they would perform in the ring but be safe to handle.

Now, if they had a chow running loose, I’d be leery as hell–those dogs are very, very prone to unfriendliness and aggression toward everyone except their immediate household.

This. (well, minus all the volunteering.)

The only mean dog I’ve ever met was a chow. Pitbulls (or what was presented to me as as a pitbull) are sweet sweet dogs. If I was going to get a dog, I’d probably get a pitbull because of their personality.

[sparky_1]

@Acid_Lamp

That is silly and irrational.

I’m ok with that.

[rivulus]

To jump on the “watch out for toy/miniature poodles” bandwagon, I am more wary of them than any big dog, including pit bull-ish looking dogs. The only dogs who have ever bitten me were a miniature poodle and a cockapoo. And I was chased down the alley one time by a small poodle biting at my ankles. Few big dogs are ever allowed to get away with the terrible behavior of those snappy little darlings.

I would ask about the behavior of any dog around children, but be more likely to trust the owner’s perception of a big dog than a little dog. People are naturally cautious of big dogs but tend to think that those little cute fur babies couldn’t harm a fly – right up until they bite some kid’s nose off.

[Vihaga]

I’d be less wary of a pit bull than pretty much any chow or many terriers. The pit bulls I’ve met have been invariably both people-friendly and a little more conscious of their bodies than bigger dogs are, so a kid’s less likely to get inadvertently run over or slapped in the face with a tail.

Plus, most of the pits I’ve met just aren’t that big. Yeah, they’re strong, but the ones I’ve seen have trended more toward the 30-40 lb end than the 60 lb end. They don’t have locking jaws, they don’t have the bite strength of a larger dog, and they aren’t generally big enough to be an accidental threat. Assuming a normal dog owner, they just don’t scare me the way some of the larger, more protective breeds do (I’m looking at you, chows and German shepherds).

[moi]

@Acid_Lamp

That is silly and irrational.

@sparky_1

I’m ok with that.

I though we were about fighting ignorance? It’s been awhile since I’ve been a regular poster; maybe this has changed?

[DrFidelius]

Irrationality is related to, but not the same as ignorance.

Recognizing irrational thought processes is a first step.

[Feyrat]

The weird thing about the scenario in the OP (which I now recognize was just a thin veneer for the “how do you personally perceive pit bulls” question) is that there’s a dinner party, an invitation, and then the dog/children issue.

1. If the host invited you and NOT your children, you should turn around and leave regardless of the dog.

2. If the host invited you AND your children, and his dog is not child-safe, then he’s a complete jackass, and you should leave.

3. If the host invited you AND your children, and then left the dog to roam, then you might presume that the host didn’t invite you in order that your children can be hurt and his dog taken away and killed, so the dog is likely safe for children.

Both children and dog should, of course, treat one another gently and with respect until they’ve got boundaries established, and then they should be able to play to their heart’s content. And of course, the adults involved should monitor this to make sure no one’s been knocked over and no one’s had an ear pulled.

[Sailboat]

@lindsaybluth

Sigh. Here we go again. I hope Sailboat comes in, fighting the good fight…

The pit-bull-shaped-searchlight shining on the clouds has summoned me.

I have read most of the first page of this thread, but not all of it yet, but will add some replies now before losing my train of thought entirely.

@Toucanna

Other breeds that have been ruined by these jerks include Rottweilers, Bull Terriers, Doberman Pinschers, Dogos Argentinos, German Shepherd Dogs, (English) Bulldogs, and many mastiff breeds.

Yes, there’s a long history of breeds put through the wringer of public mistrust, including Dachshunds, which despite their inoffensive size, were killed during the World Wars because of their association with Germany.

@sparky_1

My perception is that pitbulls are dogs that are very strong and bite to hold, and no amount of human strength can remove them.

I read a lot of news articles about pit bulls (more on the media issue in a moment). Interestingly, a recurring motif in a lot of these stories is the ease with which some people are able to assert control of these supposedly berserker dogs. One story involved numerous bystanders who were unable to subdue a supposed pit bull, then a grandmother “put the dog into a crate until police arrived.” The reporter was filled with awe over the dog’s supposed strength, determination, and savagery, but apparently completely uninterested in how a little elderly lady was able to overcome all that, because the story offered no details.

Then there’s this incident in which an elderly couple ushered their grandchildren inside when the neighbor’s 8-month-old pit bull puppy entered their yard. Notwithstanding the fact that the kids and the grandmother got inside the house safely, they decided to mess with the puppy for some reason, and the grandfather eventually successfully restrained the dog with both hands (after throwing a brick at him). So much for the invincible superdog. (The grandmother then came back out of the house shooting, and shot her husband to death while he held the dog. Form your own opinion on who was out of control in this story.)

@chiroptera

I commend you for (hopefully) staying open-minded.

Yeah, despite some flare-ups this thread hasn’t degenerated too badly.

@chiroptera

Pit bulls are medium-sized dogs, it is very possible to break them - or any dogs - apart if you know what you are doing. I’m a smallish middle-aged woman and have broken two adult male Rottweilers apart by myself - dogs that typically weigh about twice what an average pit bull weighs.

Once again, you appear to have done the impossible.

@Mosier

Just for curiosity though, what breed do you think most often gets mistaken for a pit bull in these reports?

One report I’ve seen says that Labrador Retriever/Boxer crosses are almost universally mistaken for pit bulls.

@Mosier

Pit bulls are exceptionally stupid, emotional dogs

:dubious: “Emotional” I’m not sure how to qualify; aren’t all dogs creatures of emotion? But I have known some pretty smart pit bulls. I don’t know what you’d accept as objective indication of intelligence, but they do well on temperament tests, in dog sports, and when trained for various roles like police sniffer dogs (the police won’t use them for attacking criminals, because they’re unsuited for human aggression – it’s too HARD to train them to bite people) or therapy dogs.

Regarding media bias, the words “pit bull” sell papers. The National Canine Research Council has a [case study](http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/2007 Media Bias.pdf) [warning: .pdf]. Short version: 4 separate dog bite incidents, all serious enough to require hospitalization, were reported in the media over the same 4-day span. Three of these attacks – including the lone human fatality – received a total of four press stories between them, all in local media only. The fourth attack, involved “dogs reported to be pit bulls,” but was not fatal to a human. This incident was reported in over two hundred and thirty articles in national and international newspapers, as well as major television news networks, including CNN, MSNBC and FOX.
.

[Shodan]

I voted “stay and enjoy the evening”, but my kids were trained how to deal with a strange dog, and I am there to supervise, so no worries.

Regards,
Shodan

[Feyrat]

@Shodan

but my kids were trained how to deal with a strange dog

As a dog owner, I say bless you sir, and thank you.

[Shodan]

My dad was a veterinarian, and the best dog handler I ever met. He taught me, I taught them.

Now my son owns a big goofy black German Shepherd, and he is teaching everyone around him how to deal with a strange dog.

Regards,
Shodan