# Pitbulls should be outlawed **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 29, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905 "2003-04-29T13:50:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/61 "2003-04-30T21:11:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bad News Baboon \* > \*\*Where’s **astro**? \*\* I’ve read everyone’s responses and it’s obvious there are a lot of loving pit-bull owners out there with happy dogs. On the other hand I have sat in the park one too many times and watched pit bulls silently stalk other smaller, terrified dogs like prey before lunging at them. I have _never_ seen any other dog do this silent stalking. Normally even aggressive dogs will vocalize before getting into it, but pit bulls are all business, and when it’s go time with them it’s not about establishing dominance, it’s about _killing_ the other dog. While some or all of this might well be corrected with proper training, in real terms the typical pit-bull owner I have observed does not appear to be particularly inclined to send their little tuffy to obedience class. In an ideal environment I am sure pit bulls would be wonderful dogs, but in real world terms it is obvious many pit-bull owners (obviously not all) get a rush from the powerful and dangerous aspect of these dogs when taking them into public spaces and the apprehensive responses of other people. Particularly other dog owners and people with small children. As some have pointed out all this might be moot if pit bulls were the size of lapdogs, but they’re not. Pit bulls are large and extremely powerful animals and are quite capable of killing or mortally injuring a grown adult man or woman if they are so inclined. They were bred to fight and kill and they do this with great efficiency. Whether it’s nature or nurture is sort of beside the point as the facts on the ground are that pit bulls are at the head of the pack with respect to deadly dog attacks on humans. In considering the feelings of pit-bull owners and the fate of their dogs I think the English law is very sound and people with pit bulls should be left alone, but the breeding and acquisition of new dogs should be prohibited. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/62 "2003-04-30T21:30:03Z")
Well, then, clearly we should get rid of the moronic owners. The ones already out there can live out their lives, but they have to be leashed and muzzled at all times, and you can’t breed any more of them. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/63 "2003-04-30T21:34:09Z")
Yeah. No matter how many well-reasoned arguments, personal anecdotes, articles, data, fact-finding missions or messages from higher powers come into play, nothing trumps prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/64 "2003-04-30T22:03:28Z")
**astro** , you’re not going to notice the “pit bulls” that aren’t a problem. How do you know that the “typical owner” doesn’t have a well behaved dog? BTW, did you follow the link that was posted on page one to the different breeds of dog? Could you identify the one that was the APBT? What about the argument that if this particular breed of dog is banned (for the sake of argument, let’s say APBT), that the moronic owners will just move on to breeds like AmStaffs, which are probably pretty damn close to APBTs anyway (and in some breed registeries are in fact the same breed) or American Bulldogs (which are a lot bigger than a pure bred APBT). Breed-specific legislation pisses me off. What’s wrong with an appropriate viscous dog law that holds the owner responsible? Why is that not enough? ---
**Author:** ![Parallax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@Parallax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parallax)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/65 "2003-05-01T01:13:04Z")
Our dog is some sort of pit-shepard mix - but I think the pit stands for pitiful more than anything else. =) Just [look at her](http://kaczorzoo.net/Pets/Alex/Frame.htm) - how much more of a baby can you get? ---
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/66 "2003-05-01T12:42:03Z")
Astro, you are trying to release the owners of these dogs from their responsibility and that is the basic problem. If a dog, of any breed, acts in a destructive manner then the owner must be held liable. That is the only fair way to do it. This is similar to the argument for gun control, i.e. that you can control someone’s behavior by banning some object. The fact of the matter is that the only way to reduce these types of incidents is to hold the owners liable. That way only the people that commit the illegal act are punished, not everyone else. Ben Franklin said it best when he said: “those who would give up liberty for safety will get neither one” ---
**Author:** ![MisterThyristor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@MisterThyristor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MisterThyristor)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/67 "2003-05-02T05:55:20Z")
**Astro** , pit bulls are among the least human-aggressive of all dogs, even those trained for fighting. From the pit bull FAQ: “The American Canine Temperament Testing Association, which sponsors tests for temperament titles for dogs, reported that 95% of all APBTs that take the test pass, compared with a 77% passing rate for all breeds on average. The APBT’s passing rate was the fourth highest of all the breeds tested.” Part of the rules of pit fighting (and I hate it as a “sport”, I am not endorsing it at all) is that the handler of each dog washes the opponent’s dog before each match. Any human-aggressive tendencies have been bred out by eliminating any dog who showed aggression towards humans. Aggression towards other animals may be a problem, but as every one else here has mentioned, it is more in the conditioning and socialization than in the breeding. One of our pitbulls in particular thought that she was the mother of our cats, and would constantly watch over them, even allowing them to clean (and occasionally bite) her ears. Helen Keller owned a pit bull. Petey, the dog in the _Little Rascals_, was a pit bull. During the 30’s, the pit bull was one of the most popular family dogs in the U.S. If a dog is aggressive towards humans, whether from abuse, wrongful training, or cross-breeding with more human-aggressive breeds, it should be destroyed. But don’t blame the breed as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![ratty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ccd318/32.png) [@ratty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratty)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/68 "2003-05-02T10:41:03Z")
Christ, are we back to this? I’ve spent a good ten years of my life fighting this kind of ignorance. Anyway, I thought chows were the new Demon Dog of the Month™. Yes, “pit bulls” were bred to fight. They are strong and tenacious. Any animal with even a minimum of strength can pose some sort of physical danger to humans. Shall we just ban all pets save guinea pigs? Come now. As has been pointed out, pits are among the least likely of all breeds to be human aggresive. However, this doesn’t actually mean much. Why? Because any moron whose credit card clears can get himself a dog. Training your dog to be aggressive can make him aggressive. Training your dog in a haphazard and inconsistent manner can make him aggressive. Not training him at all can make him aggressive. Leaving him outside with no human interaction and nothing to do all day but try to get this damn chain off his neck can make him aggressive. Pretty much every recognizable dog breed today was originally bred for some purpose. And not all those purposes fit in so well with modern apartment-dwellers. Large strong dogs with guarding or hunting instincts have always been popular. In the right hands, they’re wonderful pets. In the wrong hands, they’re a nightmare waiting to happen. What it all comes down to is human error and overconfidence. Think hard about why you want a dog, and why you want a particular breed of dog. If you want a nice easy pet that won’t require too much effort or supervision, get a hamster. Because even a 6-lb dog can do unimaginable damage with an idiotic owner. And take some responsibility. If you know your dog is aggressive around other dogs, keep him leashed at all times. Don’t go to dog parks during peak hours. And get yourself the help of a professional trainer. Learn to control your dog. It’s like having a gun, kids- learn how to use it safely, or chances are someone you care about is going to end up dead. People who don’t act responsibly with their animals should be made to, through a system of fines and other punishments. It is not the animal’s fault that their owner is a moron who has no idea how to handle a dog. But whenever there’s trouble between a dog and a human, the dog always loses. Always. I have a three dogs and a cat. One of those dogs is a pit. He is sweet and friendly, and gets on beautifully with my other pets. He is never allowed outside off-leash. None of my dogs are. I trust them, but only so far. And I do not at all trust other dog owners to be as responsible as I am. ---
**Author:** ![greck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7ab992/32.png) [@greck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/greck)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/69 "2003-05-02T14:49:53Z")
Jezus friggin christ, I’m seeing a polarized argument here where there really needs to be a different discussion about another problem. The real problem is that some people feel the need to express their penis size with their dogs (actually, I got a dachshund that is exactly the same size as… well, you get the point). The real problem is that people are entertained by dog fighting. The specific breed they use is really of little consequence. As long as the desire to see dogs fight exists, there will be dog fighting. Maybe it should be legalized, regulated, and brought back to the surface so at least it can be monitored. Kind of in the same way prostitution should be. Prostitute pit fighting too. I don’t even know what I’m saying anymore. ---
**Author:** ![msiladke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@msiladke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msiladke)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/70 "2004-01-07T21:27:32Z")
People kill people every day lets ban Humans! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/71 "2004-01-07T21:56:58Z")
I think anyone can own any kind of dog they want, and have it be as vicious as they’d like. But if a vicious animal harms another dog or a human, the owner should be treated as if he fired a gun at said dog or said human. The animal becomes a weapon at this point and should be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/72 "2004-01-07T22:11:31Z")
Now [this](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/01/07/1073268049505.html) is dumb… > [@](#): > > New Yorkers are renaming the pit bull terrier in an attempt to improve the dog’s frightening image. > > The city’s animal welfare agency has decided to change all its official documents to rename the pit bull the New Yorkie. ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/73 "2004-01-07T23:11:32Z")
My across-the-street neighbors got a “pit bull” (that’s what they call it, and it does look like what folks usually call a pit bull, at least around here.) I worry a lot about this dog. It’s a sweet dog, but they apparently have done no training with it. It doesn’t come when called, and shows a lot of really submissive behavior to people. (i.e., it lies down and exposes its belly a LOT). They tie it out in front of the house occasionally, and it frequently gets loose. I’ve caught it several times and taken it back to them. And I don’t know what they’ve been doing to it, but they’ve “taught” it to play a stupid game when you reach for its collar. It will hold still until your hand _almost_ reaches his collar, then he’ll dart away, just out of reach. They also haven’t neutered the dog (it’s a boy). The most likely thing that will happen to this dog is that he’ll get run over some day, when he breaks free. This dog is way too much dog for these owners. ---
**Author:** ![G-RAY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@G-RAY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-RAY)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/74 "2004-01-08T00:13:10Z")
Outlaw pit bulls and only outlaws will have pit bulls. That being said my first rule of pet ownership is: Never keep a pet that can kill you. ---
**Author:** ![Intent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5e9695/32.png) [@Intent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intent)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/75 "2004-01-08T00:53:27Z")
I have three horses and two largish (90 and 110 pound) dogs. If I followed G-RAY’s rule, I would have to get rid of them all. I’ve hurt myself, occasionally badly, falling off my horses. And there have been several occasions when I have been very lucky, and it could have been much worse. And both my dogs, if they wanted, could probably cause me serious injury. I have never met an animal though, that was born bad. I have only met those that were trained that way. If people treated thier kids like they treat thier dogs in some instances, those kids would grow up to be horrible people. But in that case, who would we blame? The kids? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/76 "2004-01-08T03:07:05Z")
From this [Highly Informative Site](http://www.edba.org.au/courier.html), we learn the following facts: > [@](#): > > “They can literally sever limbs,” the RSPCAs, Paul Edwards said. > Unlike German Shepherds, which lock their jaws, Pit Bulls move their back molars once they have bitten. Their lower jaw scissors back & forth to sever flesh from the bone. > They are not large dogs, but they have an enormous power-to-weight ratio. Their jaw strength is far greater than any other dog. > A Rottweiler will exert 800 pounds-per-square-inch jaw pressure and a Bull Terrier will exert 1200psi. A Pit Bull will exert more than 2000 psi. I’ve been bitten by a Pit Bull. I’d be darned happy if every single one of them were euthanized. For those of you who keep insisting that they’re just big puffmuffiny cutesywootsy little babysitters who let the toddler shove tennis balls in and out of their completely harmless jaws, I’d suggest buying a Golden Retriever. Funerals for toddlers really suck. Arranging plastic surgery for toddlers who were mauled by dogs sucks too. I’ve been intimately involved in the latter. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/77 "2004-01-08T03:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ratty \*He is never allowed outside off-leash. None of my dogs are. I trust them, but only so far. \*\* I’d like to thank you for writing in three sentences what everyone in this thread needs to keep in mind. Dogs are animals. ---
**Author:** ![DeaganTheWolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@DeaganTheWolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeaganTheWolf)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/78 "2004-01-08T03:39:01Z")
I can’t see needing to ban them. I agree that most of the owners bought one as a penis extender. I also would never buy one. EVERY one I’ve ever met was either hand shy or had “The Look”. The Look is when a dog is eye-balling you trying to decide if a visitor is submissive to the dog in the pack structure. I usually win this little challage by staring them in the eye until they look away. They then resort to strategy 2 be hand shy and skittish. Now other breeds have done The Look as well, but usually they decide visitors are nice and come over to be petted. I get along VERY well with all dogs; with the notable exception of the pits and the related breeds. (AmStaffs, Dogo de argentine, all those regional pit mixes etc.) I’m really not sure why. It could be that they are picking up on my distrust of them, but I doubt it. I try to evaluate each dog individually. I’d never own one, in my opinion they’re ugly, and they stink. (as do most hound and bully breeds). ---
**Author:** ![TheFifthYear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@TheFifthYear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFifthYear)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/79 "2004-01-08T16:54:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Archergal \* > \*\*It doesn’t come when called, and shows a lot of really submissive behavior to people. (i.e., it lies down and exposes its belly a LOT). > \*\* I’m curious what this indicates? Not so much the not coming when called, but the belly exposing. I didn’t know that was a sign of anything except a dog that wants his belly rubbed. ---
**Author:** ![Adjustable\_Beavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Adjustable\_Beavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Adjustable_Beavis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2004, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905/80 "2004-01-08T17:41:06Z")
Belly showing is a submissive posture in a dog. It can (and often does) mean they want their belly rubbed. But is also a dog’s way of saying “Ok, you are bigger than me, I’m submissive to you”. I’ve not owned a pit, but have owned a few breeds sometimes considered “dangerous” (Rotties and Dobermans). Owning a breed that has aggressive tendencies requires certain things of the owner. You must train the dog, socialize the dog, etc from a young age. Also treat it with kindness and love, never abuse it but you must be able to control it. Some breeds (pit is one I think) are prone to have strong built in “chase and catch” instinct towards smaller animals. They see something smaller, moving fast, or making noise and they want to chase it and catch it. If the dog has this trait the owner must work hard to break it or control it. Otherwise, trouble is brewing. Other than owners who get more dog than they can handle, cross breeding another problem of any popular breed. Some breeders will breed mothers and son’s and turn out pups that are basically crazy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls-should-be-outlawed/171905.md?page=5)