Cartooniverse, nobody is saying that all pitties are sweet, docile dogs. But roughly 98% of the ones I’ve known over the years have been. As a breed, they’re overall pretty good dogs, assuming you handle them well.
Any breed can be a menace if they’re not trained and socialized properly. For a while this fall, I thought I was going to lose the use of my left thumb from a dog bite. The dog in question was a 10# miniature pinscher. I have met exactly one of those little buggers who wasn’t a complete landshark, and it would certainly not hurt my feelings a bit to never lay eyes on one again. Am I calling for them to be banned? Certainly not. The dogs can’t help having aggressive, dominant personalities any more than they can help being (for the most part in my experience) owned by blithering idiots who don’t know how to deal with that sort of personality.
Oh, and no dog should be allowed to roam off-leash in an uncontrolled setting. Not because the dog might be dangerous, but because of dangers to the dog. I trust my girls to come back to me when called, but I don’t trust them not to chase a squirrel out into the street and get flattened, you know?
<rant>
I’m all for the Bad Owners-Bad Dogs vote too.
However, there is something no one has posted about so far.
Sometimes, the BAD OWNER is not the person who ties up the dog in the yard and leaves it to its own devices all day.
SOMETIMES the BAD OWNER is the one who dotes on his/her dog, and believes sweet little Muffy would NEVER HURT ANYONE.
It’s the owner who always lets Muffy get away with everything - with destroying stuff in the house (She’s so spirited!), barking aggressivelywhen people come to the door (She’s protective!) growling and showing teeth at strangers (She’s protective of me, you know, and she doesn’t know you!), nipping or biting at young children (she doesn’t have kids at home, so she’s just doing her dog thing!), letting the dog show aggressive behavior in response to something a human did (He was taunting her!), or another dog (He was taunting her! He was being obnoxious and deserved it!), or over-uses poor knowledge in “dog psychology” to explain Muffy’s bad behavior (it’s pack related. She’s a dominant bitch. She thinks she’s the Alpha. Protectiveness is in her breed standard…She’s submissive, she was afraid, etc…)
Yeah.
Those. People who have worked in vet clinics know exactly the kind of owner I’m talking about. Same for those who have worked in obedience and training schools. Or have been in the show ring.
THOSE are the BAD OWNERS you see on the evening news saying “Muffy never has done ANYTHING like that! It was the child’s fault, taunting Muffy like that… crossing into her territory! She was just being a guard dog! She’s always been good with children! Here! I have pictures of her with my grandson!”
Yeah.
Let’s not forget THOSE owners… not all bad owners are drug lords with pit fightin’ dogs.
</rant>
I’ve been bitten by dogs. Many of them. Spare for one bite, all the others were from drop-kickable-sized pooches under 20 pounds. The worst bite I ever sustained was from an aggressive miniature poodle who decided that me cliping a leash to his collar was not going to be allowed.
Well, Ellen, I’d count those as people who haven’t properly socialized their dogs, but yeah, I flippin’ hate those owners. The one’s who tell you, “Oh, no, he’d never bite,” and say in the same breath, “Oh, he won’t let you do ___. I tried, and he nipped at me.” The ones who giggle as they tell you, “Oh, he’s so awful, he chews on us all the time.” It makes you want to slap the piss out of them, because a biting dog is NOT a laughing matter.
Goddammit! I meant to quote the section where you described her lunging at other dogs, thank you for rescuing her, point out that it wasn’t the other dogs’ fault they were off-leash, and suggest that you muzzle her when she’s out where she could endanger other dogs. Sorry about that!
I then went on, in the most brilliant and moving post ever, to describe my experiences in a dogfighting prosecution. But that post is gone forever.
Thanks, hamsters! Here’s hoping some pit bulls find you.
Yet someone else that wants to ban something because people don’t deal with it responsibly. When will people learn that banning things only makes people want it more?
When I give my dog (Bichon/Shitzu/Yorky) a new bone, he chews it quite a bit. When it’s getting really gooey, he’ll put it in his mouth, roll over on his back and kind of moan in what sounds like demented dog glee.
Now, I think this is kind of cute, but now I’m wondering - is this really bad dog behaviour? FWIW, if I take the bone away he just looks at me. Doesn’t tug it or growl or anything.
Also, he tries to steal socks off peoples feet - anyway to get him to cut this out? “No!” and water squirted in the face don’t seem to be working. (He’s 7 months old if that matters.)
My favorite is my parents neighbors, who have a pug and some other small dog as well. They always let the dogs unleashed out the front door because “he won’t walk on a leash.” I’m surprised neither dog was hit by a car.
And yet my childhood babysitter had a pit-bull X and Chihuahua that got along wonderfully. If it was breed, not conditioning, shouldn’t the little fella have been stalked and killed by the pit bull?
Anyway, of this babysitter’s three dogs, only one of them scared any of the others or the kids - the overly enthusastic bull dog that used to tackle kids so he could lick their faces. There’s nothing like being three feet tall and having a happy dog bowl you over…
Dogs are smart, they know when people don’t like them.
No, clearly you don’t. Furthermore, please have your facts straight before you express an opinion. The Dogo Argentino (NOT “dogo de argentine”) is not a “regional pit mix,” it is a large game hunter developed from about ten different breeds, none of which is a pit bull. Please reference the pit bull ID site linked earlier–just because a dog is large and has a broad head does not make it a pit mix.
That having been said, I do not wish to sound as though I am making this separation because I have something against pit bulls, I just want you to have your facts straight. I love pits, they’re some of the best people dogs that exist. Yes, they’re dog aggressive, but historically they’ve been culled severely against human aggressive traits. They’re extremely pain tolerant, which makes them great pets for kids, as they can withstand far more manhandling than just about any other breed. They’re also known as “nanny dogs” for this reason.
In regards to Astro’s comment:
That’s sort of funny, in a sad way. Historically speaking, game-bred pits were, and still are, the size of lap dogs. Game pits, the ones actually bred for fighting by serious pit fighters, are typically in the 38-45 pound range. Did you manage to find the actual pit on that pit bull ID page? Looks like a toy dog, doesn’t it?
I can’t even manage to articulate any thoughts right now, but that’s okay because most of those who posted before me have said what I want to say, I guess. I grew up in a vet hospital, I’ve worked as a vet tech, and I’ve managed a pet store and grooming shop. Guess which breeds I regularly had to dodge bites from? Top two: corgis and queensland heelers. Guess which dogs I never had to worry about losing a finger to? I’ll give you a hint: it starts with a “p” and ends with “it bulls.”
Yes, they are dog aggressive. That’s undeniable, it’s what they’ve been bred for the way that a border collie has been bred for herding. But dog aggression does not translate to human aggression, and responsible owners will take the steps necessary to ensure that their dogs are under control at all times, whether it’s a pit bull’s desire to fight or a greyhound’s desire to bolt after a cat and never be seen again.
I’ll end this with some stances from groups who, presumably, have some strong basis for a knowledgable stance on this issue.
The American Kennel Club–strongly opposes any legislation that determines a dog to be “dangerous” based on specific breeds or phenotypic classes of dogs.
National Animal Control Association– “Dangerous and/or vicious animals should be labeled as such a result of their actions or behaviour and not because of their breed.” “Any animal may exhibit aggressive behaviour regardless of breed.”
California Medical Association, Colorado Veterinary Medical Association, New York State Veterinary Medical Society– "The California Veterinary Medical Association strongly supports and encourages responsible pet ownership and the enforcement of existing animal control ordinances. We believe that this would prevent most, if not all, of the dog attacks that have been reported recently, as many of them were the result of owner negligence or actual encouragement of aggressive behaviour. As veterinary medical professionals, we believe that no one particular breed of dog should be discriminated against because, given a responsible owner, the vast majority of these dogs are a benefit to mankind. In the present furor over pit bulls there is no formal definition of the term and, therefore, it is unclear which breed or breeds are being included in a blanket condemnation which we wholeheartedly oppose." (bolding mine)
Canadian Veterinary Medical Association–“Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA) supports dangerous dog legislation provided that it does not refer to specific breeds. This legislation should be directed at fostering the safety and protection of the general public from dogs classified as dangerous. The CVMA encourages and supports responsible pet ownership.”
National Association Representing the Veterinary Profession in Canada–"it is important for municipalities to keep in mind that dangerous dogs are generally a result of irresponsible ownership. Dogs can become a threat if they are not properly socialized and trained, if they are mistreated or if they are deliberately bred or encouraged to attack people or animals, first it must be established what constitutes a dangerous dog. The criteria should not be breed specific as this only discriminates against certain breeds, instead of evaluating individual dogs on their behaviour.
The National Companion Animal Coalition–"The Coalition urges municipalities to adopt legislation to prevent harmful situations, bearing in mind that dangerous dogs are generally the result of irresponsible ownership and that owners should be held responsible for their dogs behaviour.
The Canada Safety Council–“does not recommend breed bans. Mixed breeds and not purebred dogs are often implicated in biting incidents. Moreover, a breed ban may provoke people who want aggressive dogs to seek out other breeds or train them to become vicious.”
The Canadian Kennel Club–“does not support breed specific legislation. The CKC opposition to breed -specific legislation is based on the fact that a dangerous temperament is a product of many factors, and not by breed alone.”
Humane Society of America– September 1989, Journal of Medical Association 11:61-69
According to this report, over 66% of all dog related deaths are attributed to more media friendly type dogs such as the Labrador and Cocker Spaniel, while the other 1/3 are the Pit Bull, Pit Bull mixes, Rottweilers and Shepards, the group more commonly portrayed in the media as “dangerous dogs” are most often the breeds that are banned.
With thanks to the various anti-BSL groups to which I belong, for the compilation of quotes.
Chewing and “talking” in funny ways is one of those things pups do. Zap talks to herself while she plays. The key, as you pointed out, is that you can take it away from him and the worst he does is probably give you a “Blasted matriarch, why did you do this to me?!” look. Zap throws toys for herself, and “chats” while retrieving them. I’ve caught her with an entire toy basked emptied out on my bed, “chatting” with her toys and munching the faces off her stuffed animals. I think she’s a tad insane.
You will want to nip that sock-nipping in the bud. I also have a water-gun-lover, so the squirt thing didn’t matter one bit to him. The best thing I had with Zap or Duff when they were in their chewing mode was bitter apple spray. You should be able to find the stuff pretty much at any pet store. It makes all those things that are so wonderfully chewable and tuggable icky to the taste buds of the young puppy offender.
Spray your socks (while they’re on your feet), wait a little and watch the little brat get a mouthful of “iiiiick”. When he turns away and makes a sour face, you can tell him: “Trade ya…” and give him something more appropriate to chew or play with. This also works if he gets into something he shouldn’t, or finds something he shouldn’t be playing with. “Trade ya” becomes dog-speak for “mom’ll give me something FAR better, better drop this thing like a hot potato!”.
Of course, you may end up with the problem I had with Zap, which involved her finding things, stealing them, and bringing them to me so I’d say “trade ya”. She would bring me the TV remote (or measuring cups from the counter, or hair clips, or anything she could set her paws on while countersurfing) that way and sit there, with it in her mouth, until I said “Trade ya” and she’d drop it with this bark and grin on her face.
Ok, seeing as how that answer was so thorough - when we’re playing fetch he’ll bring me the item and drop it when I say “Drop it.” However, when I go to pick it up he lunges for the toy like he’s going to grab it before I can. Sometimes he gets darn close to my hand when he’s lunging.
He gets in big, big trouble for this - “No!”, water in the face, a bob on the nose and if he keeps doing it I’ll spank his bum and quit playing with him if he doesn’t stop. He’ll quit doing it for that session, but next time he’s back to it.
He’s just horsing around, but I don’t want him to be playing with someone and miss the toy and get their hand instead.
So - do we just quit playing fetch, or is there another techique I’m missing.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MixieArmadillo *
**:mad:
Perhaps it’s because of this:
Dogs are smart, they know when people don’t like them.
No, clearly you don’t. Furthermore, please have your facts straight before you express an opinion. The Dogo Argentino (NOT “dogo de argentine”) is not a “regional pit mix,” it is a large game hunter developed from about ten different breeds, none of which is a pit bull. Please reference the pit bull ID site linked earlier–just because a dog is large and has a broad head does not make it a pit mix.
[QUOTE]
Actually I DO have my facts straight. The Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds calls the breed Dogo De Argentine. This may have changed or is another form of the name. If I recall correctly they were bred to hunt jaguars, bear and hunt down escaped slaves. They also spent a good time as a fighting dog. I’m well aware that they have a lot of breeds in their ancestry. Obviously mastiff and bulldogs among them. I’m also aware that any broad headed dog is NOT a pit. I’m further aware that many of those breeds on that link have pit, or the breeds that were combined to create the pit in thier backgrounds.
I also have no obligation to love every breed of dog that crosses my path. I love dogs on the whole, and I get along famously with the vast majority of them. The main reasons I distrust several of these breeds are:
Many of the them were bred recently for fighting, or hunting of large game. I do not feel that they are sufficiently far enough down the generations for the aggressive streak to be completely bred out.
Many of those breeds were bred to develop a “tough” looking companion animal. Before you start, several of the breeds on the link are very recent developments, and upon further research i’ve found little eveidence of them being used as full time hunting dogs. ( with exceptions of course.) This has led to irresposible breeding practices and a general disregard for temperment.
I also believe that dogs developed as hunters, ought to be employed as such and not used for family companions. If you want one as a companion then many generations of selecting for temperment need be employed. By many I mean at minimum 40 to 50 generations.
Lastly I aknowledge that there are always exceptions to temperment in breed stadard and that any dog MAY be sweet, or can be turned mean. I don’t see the use for these breeds unless you are actively hunting. If you need a gaurd animal there are plenty or breeds that have a responsible and predictable background to choose from.
Huh, apologies, then as in all the years I’ve been involved with the breed, in all the hundreds of people I’ve communicated with, I’ve never heard a single person, in maybe ten different countries refer to them as “Dogo De Argentine.” Ever.
Out of curiosity, how many have you met, in person?
You don’t. They were bred to hunt boar, occasionally jaguar, but never, so far as I’ve ever heard, bear or slaves. You may be thinking of the Fila Brasiliero. One of the foundation breeds was the fighting dog of Cordoba, for its tenacity, but the breed founders spent decades breeding strictly against dog aggression, as dogos are pack hunters. Squabbling amongst themseves is not acceptible to hunters now, nor was it ever in the history of the breed. You can’t catch many boars if you’re trying to kill your packmates.
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** :rolleyes: So what you’re saying is, any dog that may possibly have any mastiff, or any bulldog, or any breed that may have any mastiff or bulldog blood anywhere in its ancestry is a pit mix?
**
Of course I’m not saying you are obligated. I’m only saying you shouldn’t be so mystefied as to why they don’t like you if you always approach them with suspicion, distrust, and the viewpoint that they are ugly and they stink. I’d give you the eye, too.
**
Who’s saying it should be bred out? Dog fighting, and especially large game hunting has zero connection with human aggression.
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And of course, many of those breeds were not. That whole statement is idiotic. What do you define as “very recent developments”? Twenty generations? A hundred? And no breed, no matter what its purpose, is ever going to be 100% used for its intended purpose. How many golden retrievers are out there fetching ducks in the wetlands? Regarding your statement that not all those breeds are used as full time hunting dogs… has led to irresponsible breeding practices and a general disregard for temperament… HUH? Furthermore, not every dog of any given breed will serve perfectly in its chosen role. Not every greyhound will be a race winner, not every pit bull wants to fight, not every dogo will make a great boar hunter. Therefore, some of these dogs, even in those breeds such as the dogo who are still strictly bred for their intended purpose, will end up as pets and companions. The connection you’ve drawn between that and a disregard for temperament is absolutely asounding. I’d outline why, but this is the wrong forum.
**
First, by “dogs developed as hunters” are you referring to only large game dogs? Or are you seriously going to suggest that none of the sporting breeds should be kept as pets, either? Secondly, for breeds who have yet to be corrupted by the show/pet crowd, again such as the dogo, I’d tend to agree. However, there are (again) those dogs who do not make good hunters. The choice is, then, to either cull them, let them get themselves gutted by a boar in the field, or give or sell them to someone who wants a companion, and understands the high energy and prey drive of this breed, and is fully prepared to embrace and direct that energy and drive. Why keep one as a companion? Because, unlike you, not everyone wants a couch potato. Everyone has different tastes in the qualities they appreciate in a canine companion. I, for one, apprecate the absolute adoration the dogo has for its human pack, the nearly human intelligence, the stubborness, the tenacity, their energy, their physical strength, their protective instincts and capabilities, the list goes on. If no one were allowed to keep any breed that was originally bred for anything but companionship, we’d be left with, what, toy breeds and a small handfull of others. That may satisfy you, but I prefer other qualities in my dogs.
**
Again, I fail to see the connection in these statements. First sentence, agreed. Second, I’ve already outlined why these dogs may make good companions for the right individuals. I’m not entirely sure which breeds fall under your heading of “useless except for hunting,” but dogos have been used for guide dogs for the blind, tracking, search and rescue, various dog sports, pets, etc.
Finally, which breeds, exactly, are “guard animals with a responsible and predictable background”?
Ugh. I’m running on about two hours of sleep, and my fury abounds. Therefore, I will not continue this hijack, lest I say something more appropriate for other forums.
I DID say that the name may have been incorrect or changed. It was not my intention to quibble over the Dogo. I have met several of them and to their credit they seemed like a good dog with the owner and rather wary of strangers.
Apparently my book has incorrect information, it was printed in 1998 and has only a cursoury overview of the Dogo. After further internet research I’ll agree with you on the majority of my misinformation regarding the breed.
On to my other points… What don’t you get with my idea that dogs that are bred and actively used for hunting ought be kept by people who can utilize them for that purpose? If you can deal with the energy and prey drive, and socialize them properly, more power to you. The MAJORITY of owners in my area at least, don’t bother to excersise the dogs, live in one bedroom apartments and enjoy watching they’re dog growl at every passerby. They got the dog for the wrong reasons. Since there is a High demand for these dogs, the breeders are pumping them out with little regard to anything but their wallet. I’m sure that a well bred pit, Dogo or any other bully is a wonderful dog. I’ve NEVER run into one though. All the ones I’ve had contact with were the product of backyard breeding. So the point is, there really is no NEED for anyone but hunters, or those that can handle that type of dog to have one. To be more exact, you may admire the qulities of such a dog, but how many owners share your sentiments do you think?
As to other breeds that are kept without regard to their history, see above. If you can handle it and provide an outlet for the behaviour, fine. I DETEST seeing fat lazy “couch potatos” made out of good retrievers or working breeds. However they’ve been around long enough that they’re temperment has a bit more wiggle room then some of these newer breeds.
I fully agree with everything you just said. Completely. I only bristle at your insinuations that pit bulls or molosser types are inherantly instable, dangerous, aggressive, skittish, or untrustworty dogs, simply by virtue of their breed. As you said in this post quoted above, those who are capable of providing plenty of outlets for energy and drive may do well with these breeds. Those who do not, who got the dogs for the wrong reasons or who were not prepared to handle the qualities that make these breeds what they are, often end up with ticking time bombs. So what we’re back to is the point of view that it’s not the breed as a whole that’s a problem–it’s the irresponsible or ill-prepared dog owners.
I apologize if I came on too strongly, I’m exhausted and cranky and took more offense than maybe your comments warranted.
Not yet–mama-to-be is at day 61, and we should hopefully have our pup in eight to ten weeks, depending on import-laws-of-the-moment and assuming that there’s a pup in the litter who’s “pet quality” in terms of not meeting satisfactory criteria for a hunting dog.
Dogos in the pet environment are a bit more of a handful than in a hunting environment. Pet owners really have to work hard to give them the outlets they need. We’re hoping to participate in S&R type tracking, formal obedience, therapy, and maybe other activities, depending on what seems to fit the pup best. I run a couple miles every day and I’m sure I’m going to need to pick up biking, as well, eventually.
In terms of personality, they are extremely devoted dogs who bond very, very tightly to their families, which can be an unfortunate trait in that those dogos who end up in rescue for whatever reason have a very hard time adjusting to a change of family–they seem to pine for their owners for a long time, although they eventually adjust. They are high energy and very high drive, stubborn, can be manipulative, are extremely intelligent problem-solvers, are extremely sensitive and at the same time completely impervious when they want to be, they always have to be touching you (sitting on your feet, rather than just laying nearby, or in your lap)… think “hound” with a touch less independence, the strength of an ox, and the need for companionship of a lap-dog. When I say sensitive, I’ve seen dogos corrected with just a Look or their name said in a low voice, but then in hunting situations when their prey drive turns on, a 2 X 4 to the skull might get their attention ;).
They’re fascinating, complex, amazing dogs, but absolutely not the right breed for 99% of the general population.
