# Pitbulls **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2013, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969 "2013-05-10T08:22:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/221 "2013-05-17T21:56:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … > If we’re willing to distinguish between rottweilers and pit bulls and dobermans at this level (all of whom tend toward short hair, large size, and obvious musculature), sure. “That build” means more than just muscled dogs. …[snip] > > … Again, I love me some weasel words, so I’d add something like “disproportionately” or “often.” > > Note that’s different from the definition in statement C (or B): previously you defined these dogs as muscular dogs **with a pit bull look**. I want to keep that in there in case your (generally excellent) recap statements become grist for the mill of debate; nobody is saying that a rottweiler owned by a dude who wants a scary dog is actually a pit bull… Critiques accepted. So then what are people here really debating? The relative value or lack of value vs harm in calling muscular dogs with some pit bull like features (better?) “pit bulls”? Does anyone here disagree with the CDC’s take that there is “no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill” and that the best approach is one that identifies and controls individual problem dogs and owners? Or with the [American Vetinary Medicine Association statement](https://www.avma.org/public/Health/Documents/dogbite.pdf)? (pdf) > [@](#): > > Statistics on fatalities and injuries caused by dogs > cannot be responsibly used to document the “dangerousness” of a particular breed, relative to other breeds, > for several reasons. First, a dog’s tendency to bite > depends on at least 5 interacting factors: heredity, early > experience, later socialization and training, health > (medical and behavioral), and victim behavior.7 > Second, there is no reliable way to identify the number > of dogs of a particular breed in the canine population > at any given time (eg, 10 attacks by Doberman > Pinschers relative to a total population of 10 dogs > implies a different risk than 10 attacks by Labrador > Retrievers relative to a population of 1,000 dogs). > Third, statistics may be skewed, because often they do > not consider multiple incidents caused by a single animal. Fourth, breed is often identified by individuals > who are not familiar with breed characteristics and > who commonly identify dogs of mixed ancestry as if > they were purebreds. Fifth, the popularity of breeds > changes over time, making comparison of breed-specific bite rates unreliable. > Breed-specific ordinances imply that there is an > objective method of determining the breed of a particular dog, when in fact, there is not at this time … (They also describe an excellent community approach to reducing the risk of dog bites.) It seems like the disagreements here are pretty minor, talmudic even, and the agreements fairly broad. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/222 "2013-05-17T21:57:55Z")
Ha. You’re right, and that last sentence could probably be used to describe 50% of the debates on this board. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/223 "2013-05-17T22:12:29Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > This is absurd. If you want to claim that breeds are correctly identified in dog attacks, then you need to provide a methodology that was used to determine such. It is not my job to disprove your claim, it is your job to prove it. I have seen no evidence that breed identification is based on any reliable data. No. I more or less go along with what the media reports. You are claiming that the media is usually and significantly wrong. Thus, you have made the **‘extraordinary claim** ” not me. Back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/224 "2013-05-17T22:15:46Z")
No I’m not. I’m saying that I have seen no evidence from the media that what they are saying is based on any solid evidence, because they rarely provide their sources. I am not saying that the media is usually and significantly wrong, I just see no evidence that the are correct. That is not an extraordinary claim. If you go along with what the media reports, then you need to show us why. Otherwise, you’re just ignoring a request for a cite. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/225 "2013-05-17T23:00:24Z")
I can just see it now. Dec 7th, a day that shall …… President **Labrador** talking to Admiral **Deth** Deth” _Mr President! We have to declare war! The Japs just sank six of our battleships at Pearl Harbor!_’ Labrador” \*Now, Admiral. Let’s not be hasty. First, we can’t use the term “Jap” it’s pejorative. Let us say “The peaceful Japanese people”. Now, why do you say they “sank” six of our “battleships”? \* Deth” _Sir, I saw it with my own eyes, and it’s right here in the newspaper”._ Lab: _Now, now- Admiral, you know the media has biases and often gets things wrong. Remember, we signed the Washington Naval treaty not long ago, and it goes on for pages and pages about what defines a “battleship”. How do you know these were actually “battleships”? Maybe they were battlecruisers, I hear they are hard to tell apart._ Deth: _Sir, They sank the USS Arizona, USS Oklahoma, USS West Virginia, USS California, USS Nevada & the USS Utah._ Lab: _Hmm, isn’t the Utah a Targetship, and an ex-battleship then? Doesn’t that prove the media gets identification often wrong?_ Deth: _Sure, but that still leaves five other battleships and thousands dead_…. Lab: \*Ah, but wasn’t the Nevada beached, not “sunk”? \* Deth: _well, yes……_😕 Lab: _So, we have evidence that one of the so-called “battleships” wasn’t technically a battleship at all, and that one reported “sunk” wasn’t sunk at all, right? That means we don’t know if any of the ships were actually “battleships’ or even “sunk”. Look, I am going to issue a letter of apology to the Japanese people for causing damage to their bombs. Shame on you for warmongering!_:mad: Deth: (sound of single close range gunshot, then silence…):eek: ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/226 "2013-05-17T23:06:17Z")
That is the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever read. The army typically uses intelligence reports to make decisions, not the word of newspaper reporters. They spend billions of dollars on intelligence, making sure the information they receive is accurate. Do you reallybhave nothing better to do than to bend over and pull your pants down in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/227 "2013-05-17T23:22:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I can just see it now. Dec 7th, a day that shall ….. > [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Do you reallybhave nothing better to do than to bend over and pull your pants down in this thread? This is useless. It’s possible the two of you don’t have anything more to say to each other, but if you do, it shouldn’t be this. If you have personal problems with each other, start a Pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/228 "2013-05-17T23:26:43Z")
Nonsense. I’ve been civil right up until the wall of absurdity above. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/229 "2013-05-17T23:27:34Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Nonsense. I’ve been civil right up until the wall of absurdity above. That’s the only post I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/230 "2013-05-17T23:42:19Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > They were bred to be dog aggressive but not human aggressive. I believe that training can overcome breeding. I believe that training can mitigate some kinds of difficult innate traits but very few people have the endless time and patience needed to “overcome breeding”. Which is why we breed dogs with specific personality traits and innate talents and tendencies to begin with. Because it is way easier to start with the right kind of dog than to fight against nature. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/231 "2013-05-17T23:43:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > … start a Pit thread. Ummm … no bull? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/232 "2013-05-18T02:21:56Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > So then what are people here really debating? The relative value or lack of value vs harm in calling muscular dogs with some pit bull like features (better?) “pit bulls”? Does anyone here disagree with the CDC’s take that there is “no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill” and that the best approach is one that identifies and controls individual problem dogs and owners? Or with the [American Vetinary Medicine Association statement](https://www.avma.org/public/Health/Documents/dogbite.pdf)? (pdf)(They also describe an excellent community approach to reducing the risk of dog bites.) > > It seems like the disagreements here are pretty minor, talmudic even, and the agreements fairly broad. Agreed. It’s why I find pit bull threads so often frustrating. The points I’m making are pretty minor (it’s possible to breed for behavioral characteristics, and some folks who breed pit bulls for behavioral characteristics don’t breed for peaceful pet characteristics), and I’m very clear and consistent that nothing I say is in support of breed-specific legislation. Nothing I’m saying should be, in my opinion, controversial, indeed it’s damned near tautological. But some people who love pit bulls seem to think that any suggestion that some pit bulls attack people is tantamount to calling for sweeping bans on the dog. Makes me craze. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/233 "2013-05-18T04:13:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Ummm … no bull? We’re not sure. Start a muscle dog thread. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/234 "2013-05-18T04:14:57Z")
a well loved, nurtured family pit bull just mauled a 3 yr old boy in the family home, in the presence of the woman who lived there. [Pit bull mauls 3-year-old Sampson boy](http://www.wral.com/pit-bull-mauls-3-year-old-sampson-boy/12458149/) Police had to shoot at the dog in the owners house. From the Facebook page today, of the woman who owned the pit bull with her college educated boyfriend: [https://www.facebook.com/brooke.weeks.3](https://www.facebook.com/brooke.weeks.3) “Thanks for continuing to keep Will, myself, Justin and our whole family in your prayers. This was something I never expected to happen and did everything I knew to prevent this. I was one of those people who has stood by the phrase judge the deed not the breed, or it’s all in how they’re raised. Unfortunately i had to learn the hard way that that’s not true at all Brady couldn’t have had a more loving and caring family but he did what pit bulls do and I will never advocate that anybody get such a dangerous animal I never want anybody to learn this horrible lesson the way my family has. Please anybody that has any negative comments about Me my boyfriend or my family keep them to yourselves this is not about who hates who for whatever stupid reason it’s about being thankful that Will is still here and he’s gonna be ok. This is a very difficult time for all of us. Once again, thanks for all the thoughts and prayers.” ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/235 "2013-05-18T04:34:41Z")
According to that article, I thought it said the owner had taken the dog to the pound and that its fate was unclear. Did I misread? ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/236 "2013-05-18T04:52:50Z")
> [@Tequila\_Party](#): > > According to that article, I thought it said the owner had taken the dog to the pound and that its fate was unclear. Did I misread? You read right. After the police shot at the pit bull inside the house, it ran off into the woods. The owner caught it later, and a neighbor told police the owner had the pit bull. In the comments on all of the local media reports, pit bull nutters are demanding a photo of the pit bull, and repeating their usual mantras about it being the owner, not the breed, ban the deed not the breed, that pit bulls will never attack a human unless the owners train it to, and the grande finale, that pit bulls are nanny dogs. The pit bull owners Facebook page indicates it was a pit bull, it was raised in a loving family, and she further deplores other current nutters to get rid of them. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/237 "2013-05-23T15:58:36Z")
[http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/father-toddler-killed-familys-pit-bull-offers-warn/nXzwd/](http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/father-toddler-killed-familys-pit-bull-offers-warn/nXzwd/) Yet another parent and pit bull owner warns others that pit bulls can not be domesticated, after his family pet pit bull of 8, repeat 8, years killed his child Breed specific legislation needn’t be based on people “who have never owned a pit bull” BSL could be justified alone on the number of closed casket funerals within the pit bull owners tally of their own family members killed by their land sharks, and their all too common testimonials days later. How many more per year, nutters? 40? 50? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/238 "2013-05-23T16:13:18Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > How many more per year, nutters? 40? 50? Don’t call other posters “nutters.” When you’re talking about people in society in general, it’s allowed - but just barely, and repeating it is irritating. But you can’t say it about other posters in this forum, so don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/239 "2013-05-23T17:29:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Don’t call other posters “nutters.” When you’re talking about people in society in general, it’s allowed - but just barely, and repeating it is irritating. But you can’t say it about other posters in this forum, so don’t do it again. I vow to not use the “N” word again on SDMB. I guess I should take SDMB etiquette lessons from SDMB pro pit bull member “My Lord” on page 3, post #117, on this same discussion “Pit Bulls”: " your just one of this ignorant people since you’ve never owned or even know anything about pitbulls…you fit nicely in the catagorie of those people like the Racist ones, or the prejiduce ones, the ignorant and dumb, mostly known as the assholes." Somehow, my “N” word seemed less offensive than the above, but that’s me. PS “N” word is not unique to me, or to SMDB, while referring to Pit Bull defenders in denial…I will cite links that it applies to PB defenders/ deniers in general society. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/240 "2013-05-23T17:32:37Z")
here it is in the “Urban Dictionary”: > **[Urban Dictionary: pit nutter](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pit%20nutter)** > > The hallmark trait of the pit nutter is their unwillingness to accept the genetic heritage of the pit bulldog (It’s all how you raise ‘em!) or their inability to see the death and destruction their pit bulldogs create as anything other than... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969.md?page=13)