# Pitbulls **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2013, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969 "2013-05-10T08:22:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/521 "2013-07-01T01:48:22Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Dsied > > … I read that entire cite. It is good, generic advice for dogs in general. It has no reference at all to pit bulls or their position on bans. … Exactly. The dog that did not bark so to speak. Pit bulls and bans are not on the list of what to do about dog bites. Of course as already pointed out they _did_ also explicitly endorse an educational hand out that explicitly states > [@](#): > > Although media reports and rumors often give the impression that certain breeds of dog are more likely to bite, there is little scientific evidence to support those claims. AGAIN, why do all these organizations persistently deny that BSLs can quick fix dog bites? Why are they all so “nutter” (to quote your cited lawyer) about Pit Bulls? Why do they believe that education and targeting dog behavior not breed is effective and that BSLs are not? ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/522 "2013-07-01T01:49:31Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > the evidence that links large “pit bull and pit bull like” dogs to completely senseless and needless savage attacks on humans, evidence cited countless times in this thread, is overwhelming and convincing. > > Every other source of fatalities cited by opponents are for mechanisms that have a benefit overall attached to them. Cars? Can’t live without them, and other things, etc. > > Dogs, though, are divisable into two groups – working and not working. Guard dogs are sort of on the fence. Mostly, the dogs shown to kill are either running wild, loose or are family ‘pets’. Police dogs, dogs for the handicapped, drug sniffers, sheep herders, bird dogs, fox hounds, etc. etc. are not associated with any attacks on humans that I’m aware of. So rare as to be almost impossible to document. Pit bull like dogs and other large dogs living with and around ordinary humans, the young and the elderly, are orders of magnitude more dangerous than all the rest of the dogs combined. > > In other words, we don’t ‘need’ large dogs as ‘family dogs’. > > get rid of them, the needless deaths and horrible maimings will go away. What can you possibly say to refute that? Thank you ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/523 "2013-07-01T01:53:49Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. > > I only watched the first minute and I already know that the very first attack was _absolutely_ provoked: _ **BY THE OWNER** _, because I’ve seen the original, and she’s a crazy woman who _ **told** _ her dogs to attack. So, in this single example, your “cure” would have done nothing, because if that woman could not get her hands on a pit (and of course we don’t know her dogs are pits to begin with), she would do the same as so many others who are like her do: gotten a German Shepherd, or a Rottweiler, or a number of other powerful dogs, and trained them to be violent. > > And that’s just the very first attack. > > Cougar, your means of making your point completely and totally suck! The more you throw out unsupported, dishonest, wholly invented and easily disproved junk, the less persuasive you become. If you hope to truly advocate for some kind of change and convince people to agree with you, then take a debate class or something… as you quoted me, I clearly stated “ **look how many are unprovoked** ”. I didn’t say “all attacks shown were unprovoked”. I had no way to edit the video. Go back and watch, and count the unprovoked attacks. Simple instructions. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/524 "2013-07-01T01:57:16Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > … get rid of them, the needless deaths and horrible maimings will go away. What can you possibly say to refute that? Ah. The answer to this is the same answer to te question above, why all these organizations deny that BSLs work. BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WORK. They’ve been tried and, if you’ve read the thread, you’ve read the results, from best case association of a small reduction in the number serious bites and no impact on fatalities, to being associated with a huge increase in serious bite rates, and every point in between. THAT’s why none of the major professional groups, the “coast guard” in cougar’s metaphor, endorse BSLs and many speak out against them explicitly. And that there is good evidence that education and targeting dogs based on their and their owner’s behaviors does work (cited in this thread already.) ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/525 "2013-07-01T02:38:16Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > In other words, we don’t ‘need’ large dogs as ‘family dogs’. > > get rid of them, the needless deaths and horrible maimings will go away. What can you possibly say to refute that? The fact that you think that pit bulls are “large” dogs indicates you do not have even the barest amount of actual knowledge about dog breeds. Pit bulls (that is, the three breeds that encompass that label: American Staffordshire Terriers, American Pit Bull Terriers, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers.) are all solidly medium-sized dogs, in the 25-50lb range along with a great number of other common family dogs like retrievers, spaniels, etc. By contrast, “large” dogs like dobermans, german shepherds, and mastiffs are in the 75-200lb range. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/526 "2013-07-01T02:43:54Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Mostly, the dogs shown to kill are either running wild, loose or are family ‘pets’. Police dogs, dogs for the handicapped, drug sniffers, sheep herders, bird dogs, fox hounds, etc. etc. are not associated with any attacks on humans that I’m aware of. So rare as to be almost impossible to document. I disproved this in seconds by entering “police dogs attack people” in google, finding literally dozens of fatal and non-fatal attacks cites. Heck, I can find multiple instances this decade of random smaller dogs fatally attacking children–in one instance, a Pomeranian and in another a beagle. Lots of mutts, too. Basically–don’t confuse the sheer volume of cougar’s anecdotes with actual data about what kinds of dogs bite people or do so fatally. The answer to that is “all dogs, when poorly bred or trained, bite people, sometimes fatally.” ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/527 "2013-07-01T04:16:52Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I disproved this in seconds by entering “police dogs attack people” in google, finding literally dozens of fatal and non-fatal attacks cites. > > Heck, I can find multiple instances this decade of random smaller dogs fatally attacking children–in one instance, a Pomeranian and in another a beagle. Lots of mutts, too. > > Basically–don’t confuse the sheer volume of cougar’s anecdotes with actual data about what kinds of dogs bite people or do so fatally. The answer to that is “all dogs, when poorly bred or trained, bite people, sometimes fatally.” One Pom killed a person (baby) in the last 150 years. In the same time frame, pits have killed 368 people. Please cite a few recent USA police dogs that killed humans. Show me the dozens of fatal police dog attacks. How about just the most recent one in the USA??? Laughable. I will be waiting up for this. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/528 "2013-07-01T04:21:05Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Basically–don’t confuse the sheer volume of cougar’s anecdotes with actual data about what kinds of dogs bite people or do so fatally. The answer to that is “all dogs, when poorly bred or trained, bite people, sometimes fatally.” NOT TRUE. There are many breeds that have never killed a human. Including my favorite, the Skye Terrier. And it is listed as public enemy #1 on the ATTS temperament test as having the absolute worse score possible. Please cite a Skye Terrier fatal mauling. There are millions of them, surely one must have been “poorly bred or trained”, right? Just one, in any year, decade or century. I will be waiting up for this ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/529 "2013-07-01T04:22:24Z")
I will let you off easy. How about a Skye Terrier caused amputation? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/530 "2013-07-01T04:56:59Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > NOT TRUE. > > There are many breeds that have never killed a human. Okay. Because you didn’t read what he wrote: > [@](#): > > The answer to that is “all dogs, when poorly bred or trained, bite people, sometimes fatally.” ALL dogs (can be biters)- SOMETIMES they kill. He didn’t’ say all breeds have killed. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/531 "2013-07-01T05:03:18Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > How would educating this mother and 4 yr old girl walking in the Bronx “ **how to communicate with and properly behave around dogs** ”, when a pit bull, without any warning signals, darts diagonally across a busy intersection to maul a girl? > > Video: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qZ7KRlDub8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qZ7KRlDub8) > > the land shark only stopped when a hero drove a hammer into the pits head Wow, cougar, you really don’t pay any attention, do you? It says very clearly in the video that _ **the man with the hammer never had to use it they had already pulled the dog away** _. And who has said that all dog attacks can be prevented by the actions of the people being attacked? I had a situation exactly like the one in this video - a big group of kids were walking a pit bull across the street from me in the opposite direction when I was walking my golden retriever. The pit broke away from them and came straight at my dog and attacked her. I was beyond terrified and was beating and kicking and screaming so hard I couldn’t’ talk for two days after. We didn’t do anything at all: the dog was not properly socialized, trained or controlled. Which is what we’ve been saying all along. Next. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/532 "2013-07-01T20:02:16Z")
Okay, my point boils down to…“dogs sometimes kill people. Let’s get rid of as many as we can so as to reduce the number of horrible killings and maulings that occur. We don’t “NEED” dogs, and they sometimes kill us. Get rid of them unless they are serving a valuable purpose.” don’t confuse my point with anyone saying that only pit bulls should be eliminated. That would be a wonderful start. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/533 "2013-07-01T20:43:17Z")
Kill all medium and large dogs. Wow. What a loony-toon of an idea you have bouncing around in your head. Are all of your ideas this damn stupid? How many deaths are attributable to dogs per year in the US? Like, 30? We could extend your thinking to everything from trampolines to kayaks. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/534 "2013-07-02T02:54:26Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Including my favorite, the Skye Terrier. And it is listed as public enemy #1 on the ATTS temperament test as having the absolute worse score possible. You keep saying that, and it keeps proving you don’t understand temperament as a measure of risk. Which doesn’t actually surprise me, because you also seem to think less than a thousand fatal events in more than a century of historical record constitute a risk that demands immediate and sweeping legal action, rather than a yawn and a note that there are approximately a jillion things more risky both on a per-capita and absolute basis. ---
**Author:** ![Renee\_RL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7c8e57/32.png) [@Renee\_RL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee_RL)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/535 "2013-07-02T19:57:37Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > You keep saying that, and it keeps proving you don’t understand temperament as a measure of risk. Which doesn’t actually surprise me, because you also seem to think less than a thousand fatal events in more than a century of historical record constitute a risk that demands immediate and sweeping legal action, rather than a yawn and a note that there are approximately a jillion things more risky both on a per-capita and absolute basis. Keep denying the risks. Why would anyone with a child buy a dog that is statistically more dangerous. Just mind blowing ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/536 "2013-07-02T21:55:49Z")
> [@Prejteach2](#): > > Keep denying the risks. Why would anyone with a child buy a dog that is statistically more dangerous. Just mind blowing Why would anyone with a child have a trampoline. Just mind blowing. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/537 "2013-07-02T22:48:22Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Why would anyone with a child have a trampoline. Just mind blowing. Hey, forget trampolines, what about skateboards? In 2011, there were a total of 31 dog bite fatalities, 22 of which were identified as pit bulls, and 13 of which were children under age 18. On the other hand, there were 42!!! skateboard fatalities, 29 of which were children under 18! Since skateboarding beats pit bull fatalities in kids by a factor of more than 2-to-1, I think before we ban pitbulls we need to ban skateboards. But wait, bicycling fatalities account for hundreds of deaths per year among children under 18! HUNDREDS!!! I’m telling you, it’s mindblowing that a parent who considers themselves responsible would ever get a skateboard or bike for their kid. Just mind-blowing. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/538 "2013-07-02T23:14:29Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Hey, forget trampolines, what about skateboards? > > In 2011, there were a total of 31 dog bite fatalities, 22 of which were identified as pit bulls, and 13 of which were children under age 18. > > On the other hand, there were 42!!! skateboard fatalities, 29 of which were children under 18! > > Since skateboarding beats pit bull fatalities in kids by a factor of more than 2-to-1, I think before we ban pitbulls we need to ban skateboards. > > But wait, bicycling fatalities account for hundreds of deaths per year among children under 18! HUNDREDS!!! > > I’m telling you, it’s mindblowing that a parent who considers themselves responsible would ever get a skateboard or bike for their kid. Just mind-blowing. When skateboards or bicycles escape from their owners yards, and sart killing innocent passerby, you may have a point. When skateboards or bikes continue vicious attacks on passersby, even after taking multiple direct point blank police gun shots, you will have another point. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/539 "2013-07-02T23:16:35Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > When skateboards or bicycles escape from their owners yards, and sart killing innocent passerby, you may have a point. > When skateboards or bikes continue vicious attacks on passersby, even after taking multiple direct point blank police gun shots, you will have another point. But wait, weren’t you earlier going on about how many owners dogs hurt the owners themselves and the owners children? And in fact, in the case of the children, the majority are the children of the people who own the dogs. So do a little math adjustment there and skateboards are still a way bigger problem and cause for dismay when parents give them to their own kids. Ditto bikes. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969/540 "2013-07-02T23:19:53Z")
Today a neighbors pit bull jumped its fence and badly mauled the next door neighbors child, who was innocently playing in his own yard. The child’s parents had the option of not letting their child own or ride a skateboard. They had no voice in their neighbors decision to get a land shark. Comprendez? Ps the child was transported to a local hospital, then taken to a major metro hospital. Ask any medi vac helicopter pilot or crew member which breeds account for most lifeline flights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitbulls/657969.md?page=28)