# Pitting all you Reagan bashers **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2004, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970 "2004-06-06T16:55:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/121 "2004-06-07T19:35:46Z")
As a married couple, they were as devoted to each other as any two people I’ve ever seen. That love being ravaged by Alzheimers, gets me right “here.” I don’t wish a death like that on anyone. And I feel very sad when someone loses a spouse. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/122 "2004-06-07T20:51:24Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > No, he was a leader who stood up for what he thought was right. He didn`t bend under pressure and his being an ‘arrogant bastard’ was probably the best thing for the country at the time. :rolleyes: Can we put an end to this “tough macho leader” garbage? It doesn’t take _any_ skill to “[stand] for what he thought was right” and refuse to “bend under pressure” – my four-year-old does the same thing when he doesn’t want to go to bed, and there’s nothing noble or superhuman about that. A _wise_ man is one who looks at the times and the circumstances, and takes a stance accordingly. “Sticking to your guns” in _all_ situations is the hallmark of a fool, and political worship of such a fool just makes you look even more foolish. > [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > Would you rather have a leader who`s a waivering, poll-watching coward Oh, we’re talking about George W. Bush now? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/123 "2004-06-07T21:10:30Z")
> [@Ennui](#): > > Just a momentary Rorschach, would anyone be surprised if Reagan’s passing was treated (in the main) with more respect and human compassion on the avowedly partisan Democratic Underground message board than for the most part it received here. I’ll grant that I haven’t slogged through each and every related thread on both boards but my impression is that it in fact did. Perhaps we should consider tradeing names. 🙂 I’m not surprised at all, it’s an outcome I’d expect. Democratic Underground is a political board, pure and simple, and it tolerate BS like any other political board. The Dope tries to be bullshit-free (obviously, it’s a work in progress) and would tend to be prone to avoid posts that spew empty sentiments, however nice or appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/124 "2004-06-07T22:09:30Z")
**Uncommon Sense** : > [@](#): > > He didn`t bend under pressure. . . Damn, don’t you remember Beirut? He folded faster than a pair of twos with everyone going all in. He could turn a purty phrase into a sound bite and he could nap better than any president in the past one hundred years. Until, that is, the present occupant of the Oval Office showed up on the scene. He didn’t save the world. Hell, he didn’t even save most Americans. He didn’t single handedly bring the Soviet Bear to his knees and he didn’t bend the economy to his will. Being an arrogant bastard did nothing but scare the squirts out of a whole lotta West Germans. And even though Americans **thought** they were better off doesn’t mean a fucking thing. An awful lot of people **thought** that Hussein was in on 9/11. > [@](#): > > I’m not saying that everything he touched turned to gold. . . Well, thank the fates that you’re not doing that. . . ---
**Author:** ![Ennui](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ennui/32/3396_2.png) [@Ennui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennui)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/125 "2004-06-07T22:22:45Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I’m not surprised at all, it’s an outcome I’d expect. Democratic Underground is a political board, pure and simple, and it tolerate BS like any other political board. The Dope tries to be bullshit-free (obviously, it’s a work in progress) and would tend to be prone to avoid posts that spew empty sentiments, however nice or appropriate. I’m sorry **EC** , I don’t seem to catch what you’re trying to say. Are you suggesting that the D.U., in it’s attempt to reverse the travesty of electoral politics that they found the 2000 election to be and to ensure that whatever inhuman and malevolent forces there are who pull the marionette strings of that soulless puppet known as GWB will never again be able to subvert the collective will of the American people, Diebold be dammed, are somehow more prone to spew bs and “empty sentiments” like it might be unseemly for thinking people to dance on the grave of an ideological foe before said foe is actually buried? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/126 "2004-06-07T22:49:37Z")
Isn’t it a little ironic that the death of a champion of small government is going to cost the nation more then 500 million dollars in paid leave alone, by some estimates, paid for by people who WON’T get the day off? ---
**Author:** ![WernhamHogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a587f6/32.png) [@WernhamHogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WernhamHogg)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/127 "2004-06-07T22:51:48Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Isn’t it a little ironic that the death of a champion of small government is going to cost the nation more then 500 million dollars in paid leave alone, by some estimates, paid for by people who WON’T get the day off? Yeah. You have to admire the right of the president to call for a National Everyone Take Pause and Reflect on How Great My Political Party is, in an election year. Fucking self-serving asshole. We should have a day of National refelction on how bad Reagan was for the American character. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/128 "2004-06-07T22:54:45Z")
> [@Ennui](#): > > I’m sorry **EC** , I don’t seem to catch what you’re trying to say. Are you suggesting that the D.U., in it’s attempt to reverse the travesty of electoral politics that they found the 2000 election to be and to ensure that whatever inhuman and malevolent forces there are who pull the marionette strings of that soulless puppet known as GWB will never again be able to subvert the collective will of the American people, Diebold be dammed, are somehow more prone to spew bs and “empty sentiments” like it might be unseemly for thinking people to dance on the grave of an ideological foe before said foe is actually buried? I would suspect that that board does not contain the hagiographic nonsense that this one does. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/129 "2004-06-07T23:20:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Had Reagan’s proposed budgets been passed, there would have been a surplus by the end of his term. Not in the real world. According to your link, there was (ignoring the “cumulative percentage” red herring), a $197.3 billion discrepancy between the proposed budgets and the actual budgets over the entire eight year period. However, during Mr. Reagan’s term, the U.S. debt increased from $997.9 billion (1981, or $1,142 billion in 1982) to $2,602.3 billion (1988, or $2,857.4 in 1989). In other words, Reagan’s proposed budgets would have increased the debt to roughly 88% of their eventual record highs, even if Congress had passed exactly his requests. The legend of the “responsible Mr. Reagan” being overruled by the “irresponsible” Congress is pure fantasy. Congress certainly bears the burden for their actions, but Reagan was quite complicit, frequently (and successfully) going directly to the U.S. voters to demand that they urge their congresscritters to pass his legislation. And as to this comment on the linked site: > [@](#): > > We’ve all heard the myth: President Reagan asked for far more spending than congress wanted and/or congress actually spent less than what Reagan asked for…yet the truth once again tells a different story. I have _never_ heard that Reagan asked for more than what Congress wanted to provide. I have frequently heard the canard that Reagan asked for responsible spending and that Congress blew his limits. The numbers show pretty clearly that both Congress and the White House were quite willing to spend the country under the table. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/130 "2004-06-07T23:39:28Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Isn’t it a little ironic that the death of a champion of small government is going to cost the nation more then 500 million dollars in paid leave alone, by some estimates, paid for by people who WON’T get the day off? Don’t worry, thanks to the economic policies of GWB there will be plenty of people not working on Friday, or any other day for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/131 "2004-06-08T00:32:50Z")
The El Mozote Massacre … > [@](#): > > In December 1981, the inhabitants of a small Salvadoran hamlet were systematically exterminated by the Atacatl Battalion, a U.S.-trained counterinsurgency force. The Reagan administration, determined to preserve U.S. support for El Salvador’s war against leftist guerrillas, downplayed reports of this massacre. The White House ignored and deflected reports that hundreds of unarmed women, children and men were shot, hung or beheaded. [http://www.parascope.com/articles/0197/el\_mozin.htm](http://www.parascope.com/articles/0197/el_mozin.htm) _**"It was in the month of December 1981 Conducted by the Yankees’ Atlacatl Battalion What a bitter Christmas for the children of my village They don’t get to play with toys, only the bullets and mortars."**_ I always thought we were the good guys. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/132 "2004-06-08T00:53:02Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > No, he was a leader who stood up for what he thought was right. He didn`t bend under pressure and his being an 'arrogant bastard' was probably the best thing for the country at the time. Would you rather have a leader who`s a waivering, poll-watching coward or one that sticks to his guns (even if he turns out to be wrong). I’m not saying that everything he touched turned to gold, but the man was more of a leader than most of the presidents in the last 50 years. > **Most Americans thought they were better off after his first four years than they were before he was elected.** No disrespect to President Reagan himself, but I would politely suggest that the criteria I’ve bolded above is not, in isolation, a valid criteria for assessing how good a national leader is. As an extreme example of how poor such criteria really is, I would note that most people in Germany in 1932 would have made the same statement. My point here is that Ronald Reagan is often credited with things which likely would have happened regardless. I’m firmly of the belief that Mikhail Gorbachev would have come along regardless of who the US President was, and it should also be noted that it was Margaret Thatcher, not Ronald Reagan who first opined that Secretary Gorbachev “is a man with whom we can do business”. Also, for all of the assertions that President Reagan returned the USA to a warm, cozy, feel good kinda vibe - let’s take a pause to remember the ugly dirty side of the 1980’s too. An explosion in drug use, and an explosion in corporate impropriety. It behoves us to remind ourselves of the message attached to Oliver Stone’s “Wall Street”. It’s my considered opinion that the USA didn’t improve under President Reagan. I know, I know - it’s only an opinion - however, I base my opinion on what COULD have been achieved at a fiscal level, especially regarding those American citizens who were not in the middle or upper echelons of income. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/133 "2004-06-08T00:53:22Z")
Same time those four missionaries were raped and murdered by the Salvadoran military. Three of them were nuns, one a lay missionary. Then Jean Kirkpatrick said they were subversives, and Al Haig suggested that the women were FIRING at the military. Yep, those damn pistol-packing nuns. :rolleyes: Yep, great idea to support these people. Remember, “Be a patriot! Kill a priest!” ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/134 "2004-06-08T01:04:02Z")
Let’s not forget the ridiculous number (130+) of Reagan Administration officials who left office amidst scandal, corruption or prosecution. And yet somehow, Reagan himself emerged untarnished. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/135 "2004-06-08T01:06:01Z")
> [@Boo Boo Foo](#): > > I’m firmly of the belief that Mikhail Gorbachev would have come along regardless of who the US President was From a letter written by [Mikhail Gorbachev](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/07/opinion/07GORB.html?ei=5062&en=36f124a02672ec9e&ex=1087272000&adxnnl=1&partner=GOOGLE&adxnnlx=1086620951-ITZkD/4GgiJDjgwDoJzrXw) and printed in the New York Times today: > [@](#): > > I don’t know whether we would have been able to agree and to insist on the implementation of our agreements with a different person at the helm of American government. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/136 "2004-06-08T01:10:49Z")
> [@XJETGIRLX](#): > > From a letter written by [Mikhail Gorbachev](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/07/opinion/07GORB.html?ei=5062&en=36f124a02672ec9e&ex=1087272000&adxnnl=1&partner=GOOGLE&adxnnlx=1086620951-ITZkD/4GgiJDjgwDoJzrXw) and printed in the New York Times today: That’s a slam dunk **XJETGIRLX** ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/137 "2004-06-08T01:11:13Z")
Thank you for the quote there. I’m happy to concede that what I’m about to say is conjecture, but I would contend that the USSR was going broke even before 1980. No country can continue to spend 20+% of their GDP propping up a military industrial complex as WELL as sponsoring puppet states left right and center. The USSR would have backed down sooner or later regardless in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/138 "2004-06-08T01:26:18Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Let’s not forget the ridiculous number (130+) of Reagan Administration officials who left office amidst scandal, corruption or prosecution. Reagan’s first secretary of the interior, [James Gaius Watt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._Watt) holds a special place in the hearts of many environmentalists. A feeling which secretary Watt reciprocated: > [@](#): > > “A left-wing cult dedicated to bringing down the type of government I believe in.” > –James Watt describing environmentalists Of course, the lefties finally nailed Watt for his insensitivity rather than his contempt for the environment: > [@](#): > > “I have a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple. And we have talent.” – James Watt, describing his staff to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce on September 21, 1983; this comment led directly to his forced resignation ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/139 "2004-06-08T01:42:21Z")
> [@XJETGIRLX](#): > > From a letter written by [Mikhail Gorbachev](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/07/opinion/07GORB.html?ei=5062&en=36f124a02672ec9e&ex=1087272000&adxnnl=1&partner=GOOGLE&adxnnlx=1086620951-ITZkD/4GgiJDjgwDoJzrXw) and printed in the New York Times today: It’s polite, eulogistic drivel. Big deal. ---
**Author:** ![XJETGIRLX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9fc29f/32.png) [@XJETGIRLX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XJETGIRLX)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970/140 "2004-06-08T02:26:55Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > It’s polite, eulogistic drivel. Big deal. Aww, come ON! If that ain’t a valid cite I don’t know what the hell else is! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-all-you-reagan-bashers/248970.md?page=8)