# Pitting Amateur Barbarian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554 "2015-07-08T08:05:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/81 "2015-07-14T12:48:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Meh, come back when you have six. Or even five. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/82 "2015-07-14T12:51:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve generally liked **AB** as a poster from my limited interaction with him (whether agreeing or disagreeing with him), but in my view citing your own paper as a “complete and coherent argument…” without mentioning that you’re the author is as troubling as it would be if people were looking for novels and I linked to mine saying “check these out, these are great!” without saying that they were my books. The context is completely different. If people are “looking for novels”, then your recommendation is an attempt to get them to read/buy your novel based on your biased review. In this case, the purpose is just to raise arguments in the thread at hand, and the link is just a short hand way of putting forth the arguments without repeating them at length. Contrary to what was claimed in this thread, AB did not claim the author of the article was an expert or otherwise suggest that the personal qualifications of that author should sway anyone, and based on common practice and attitudes on this MB there’s no expectation that anyone would be swayed by the “authority” of some guy writing an online article somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/83 "2015-07-14T12:53:23Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > [Link.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=761581) OK, he rants and calls all his health care providers assholes. But if he claims everyone around him is an asshole, then isn’t the asshole really him? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/84 "2015-07-14T12:55:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That’ll probably get you a bit more popular with the cool kids. Good luck … :rolleyes: Weak sauce. You’re better than that, **Phipps**. . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/85 "2015-07-14T12:59:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The context is completely different. > > If people are “looking for novels”, then your recommendation is an attempt to get them to read/buy your novel based on your biased review. > > In this case, the purpose is just to raise arguments in the thread at hand, and the link is just a short hand way of putting forth the arguments without repeating them at length. Contrary to what was claimed in this thread, AB did not claim the author of the article was an expert or otherwise suggest that the personal qualifications of that author should sway anyone, and based on common practice and attitudes on this MB there’s no expectation that anyone would be swayed by the “authority” of some guy writing an online article somewhere. The context is different, but they’re close to equally problematic, in my view (maybe the novel stuff is a bit worse because there’s money involved). Not a huge deal, and quite a common practice (unfortunately) in the world of self-published authors, from my experience, but still troubling to me. Self-promotion is fine, I think, whether for self-published novels or for papers about sci-fi authors, but in my view it must be open and honest – you must identify your own interest. And every writer has an interest in their own work, and an interest in having it well-received, even if there is no money involved. It’s troubling because saying “look at this paper for a good argument” without saying who the author is implies that the author is someone else. I think that such an implication is obvious to anyone who might post something like that – when I link to an article, I don’t have to specify “this author is not me” – everyone understands that linking to an article without saying who it is means that it’s just an article online written by some online person with no connection to yourself. It would have been fine if **AB** had just mentioned that he wrote it – even with a ‘Full Disclosure’ note at the end of the post. By not doing so he is guilty of deceit (in an incredibly minor way), in my view. Not the end of the world, but something that in my view shouldn’t be done and should be criticized. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/86 "2015-07-14T13:04:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s troubling because saying “look at this paper for a good argument” without saying who the author is implies that the author is someone else. I think that such an implication is obvious to anyone who might post something like that – when I link to an article, I don’t have to specify “this author is not me” – everyone understands that linking to an article without saying who it is means that it’s just an article online written by some online person with no connection to yourself. It would have been fine if **AB** had just mentioned that he wrote it – even with a ‘Full Disclosure’ note at the end of the post. By not doing so he is guilty of deceit (in an incredibly minor way), in my view. I agree that by not mentioning his authorship the understanding would be that he’s not the author. But I don’t think that misunderstanding has any impact. Nothing is riding on whether he is or isn’t the author, and no one is expected to take the arguments any more seriously based on his not being the author. Others will either agree that the arguments are complete and coherent or disagree, regardless of whether or not AB is the author. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/87 "2015-07-14T13:18:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I agree that by not mentioning his authorship the understanding would be that he’s not the author. But I don’t think that misunderstanding has any impact. > > Nothing is riding on whether he is or isn’t the author, and no one is expected to take the arguments any more seriously based on his not being the author. Others will either agree that the arguments are complete and coherent or disagree, regardless of whether or not AB is the author. I think something is riding on it, or else he would have mentioned it. I certainly jump at the chance to mention my books if I think they’re relevant to a discussion (or if someone is looking for something to read in my genre), but I can’t imagine not mentioning that they’re my books. I similarly don’t believe that any decision to not mention one’s authorship can be anything but a calculated one – he chose not to mention that he wrote it, and that choice was a choice for deceit by implication. Not a huge deal, and not unforgivable, but still a deceitful post, in my view. If we disagree here, no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/88 "2015-07-14T13:23:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think something is riding on it, or else he would have mentioned it. My guess is the reason he didn’t mention it so it wasn’t as obvious what his real name is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/89 "2015-07-14T13:25:15Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > My guess is the reason he didn’t mention it so it wasn’t as obvious what his real name is. That’s possible, but in my mind it doesn’t excuse the deceit by implication. If that was his worry, he shouldn’t have linked to it, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/90 "2015-07-14T13:35:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think something is riding on it, or else he would have mentioned it. Agreed. The context implies that, hey, there’s someone _else_ who agrees with me, which lends a (possibly quite tiny) amount of support to my position. I agree that it’s a little thing, but it’s just ever so slightly douche-y. ---
**Author:** ![RobDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f07891/32.png) [@RobDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobDog)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/91 "2015-07-14T13:50:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s possible, but in my mind it doesn’t excuse the deceit by implication. If that was his worry, he shouldn’t have linked to it, in my view. Agreed. I don’t understand why he linked to it at all. Why didn’t he make the arguments in a normal post? It’s not like he’d have to worry about copyright or plagiarism issues. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/92 "2015-07-14T14:02:51Z")
“Moreover, I confess I am, for better or worse, an online ‘personality’, as they say, of some renown,” he informed the stranger, visibly inching away on her seat. “I won’t go into details, but suffice to say that on a certain message board whose stated objective is to fight ignorance,” here he chortled, "quixotic as that goal may be—I, and a small cadre of my intellectual disciples, apply our formidable talents toward that end. A thankless job, as you may no doubt imagine, but not without its rewards. “In fact,” he told the back of her head, “I am, as we speak, being fêted in a sort of text-based ‘roast’, one might say. If you are unfamiliar with the term, outside of its culinary sense, of course,” he paused, waiting for a laugh, “it’s a tradition in which a noted public figure or celebrity— or in this case, both— is subjected to several rounds of good-natured needling and related hijinks by a group of his peers and admirers. On its face it may seem like criticism, even abuse, but it is among the highest of honors that a man may achieve, and I assure you,” he assured the now empty seat, “I know whence I speak, having achieved a respectable number of honors in my brief lifetime.” ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/93 "2015-07-14T14:15:01Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Moreover, I confess I am, for better or worse, an online ‘personality’, as they say, of some renown,” he informed the stranger, visibly inching away on her seat. “I won’t go into details, but suffice to say that on a certain message board whose stated objective is to fight ignorance,” here he chortled, "quixotic as that goal may be—I, and a small cadre of my intellectual disciples, apply our formidable talents toward that end. A thankless job, as you may no doubt imagine, but not without its rewards. > > “In fact,” he told the back of her head, “I am, as we speak, being fêted in a sort of text-based ‘roast’, one might say. If you are unfamiliar with the term, outside of its culinary sense, of course,” he paused, waiting for a laugh, “it’s a tradition in which a noted public figure or celebrity— or in this case, both— is subjected to several rounds of good-natured needling and related hijinks by a group of his peers and admirers. On its face it may seem like criticism, even abuse, but it is among the highest of honors that a man may achieve, and I assure you,” he assured the now empty seat, “I know whence I speak, having achieved a respectable number of honors in my brief lifetime.” Quite delightful. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/94 "2015-07-14T14:23:38Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Moreover, I confess I am, for better or worse, an online ‘personality’, as they say, of some renown,” he informed the stranger, visibly inching away on her seat. “I won’t go into details, but suffice to say that on a certain message board whose stated objective is to fight ignorance,” here he chortled, "quixotic as that goal may be—I, and a small cadre of my intellectual disciples, apply our formidable talents toward that end. A thankless job, as you may no doubt imagine, but not without its rewards. > > “In fact,” he told the back of her head, “I am, as we speak, being fêted in a sort of text-based ‘roast’, one might say. If you are unfamiliar with the term, outside of its culinary sense, of course,” he paused, waiting for a laugh, “it’s a tradition in which a noted public figure or celebrity— or in this case, both— is subjected to several rounds of good-natured needling and related hijinks by a group of his peers and admirers. On its face it may seem like criticism, even abuse, but it is among the highest of honors that a man may achieve, and I assure you,” he assured the now empty seat, “I know whence I speak, having achieved a respectable number of honors in my brief lifetime.” You sir, are quite the trencherman. Kudos. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/95 "2015-07-14T14:58:47Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Agreed. The context implies that, hey, there’s someone _else_ who agrees with me, which lends a (possibly quite tiny) amount of support to my position. I agree that it’s a little thing, but it’s just ever so slightly douche-y. This was how it read to me as well. Typical douche move. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/96 "2015-07-14T15:12:28Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Moreover, I confess I am, for better or worse, an online ‘personality’, as they say, of some renown,” he informed the stranger, visibly inching away on her seat. “I won’t go into details, but suffice to say that on a certain message board whose stated objective is to fight ignorance,” here he chortled, "quixotic as that goal may be—I, and a small cadre of my intellectual disciples, apply our formidable talents toward that end. A thankless job, as you may no doubt imagine, but not without its rewards. > “In fact,” he told the back of her head, “I am, as we speak, being fêted in a sort of text-based ‘roast’, one might say. If you are unfamiliar with the term, outside of its culinary sense, of course,” he paused, waiting for a laugh, “it’s a tradition in which a noted public figure or celebrity— or in this case, both— is subjected to several rounds of good-natured needling and related hijinks by a group of his peers and admirers. On its face it may seem like criticism, even abuse, but it is among the highest of honors that a man may achieve, and I assure you,” he assured the now empty seat, “I know whence I speak, having achieved a respectable number of honors in my brief lifetime.” This is the best thing I’ve ever read. [It’s… … Beautiful](https://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/its_beautiful.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/97 "2015-07-14T15:49:33Z")
> [@Paranoid\_Randroid](#): > > Agreed. The context implies that, hey, there’s someone _else_ who agrees with me, which lends a (possibly quite tiny) amount of support to my position. I agree that it’s a little thing, but it’s just ever so slightly douche-y. That’s why I called it sock puppetry. It’s exactly like creating a sock puppet to come into a thread and agree with you about something. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/98 "2015-07-14T16:40:30Z")
> [@lost4life](#): > > You sir, are quite the trencherman. Kudos. I would say he is quite the trenchant man. Oh, do you see what I did there? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/99 "2015-07-14T17:24:07Z")
A pun is only as good as the facade onto which it is melted. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2015, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554/100 "2015-07-14T17:25:07Z")
> [@AncientHumanoid](#): > > A pun is only as good as the facade onto which it is melted. What … in THE HELL … is THAT supposed to mean? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-amateur-barbarian/724554.md?page=6)