# Pitting Biden and Anyone Else Not Supporting Immediate Expansion of the Supreme Court **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2022, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532 "2022-07-07T02:32:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/21 "2022-07-07T14:33:21Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > it’s entirely possible that even floating the idea (let alone making it a dominant campaign theme) would hurt Dems’ chances of holding either house, let alone growing their majorities. I don’t understand this. If this is clearly the only way to achieve the outcome that everyone says the majority of Americans want, why would you think this? If Americans don’t WANT to stop what’s happening, then so be it. But at least give them a Democratic leadership that sets out a unified and decisive plan to act (for a change) and give the electorate a chance to vote for it. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/22 "2022-07-07T14:37:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > If this is clearly the only way to achieve the outcome that everyone says the majority of Americans want, why would you think this? Because a lot of Americans are conditioned to think the situation can’t possibly be this dire, and would be susceptible to the GOP narrative saying, “See? Democrats really are crazy radicals.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/23 "2022-07-07T14:43:25Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Because a lot of Americans are conditioned to think the situation can’t possibly be this dire, and would be susceptible to the GOP narrative saying, “See? Democrats really are crazy radicals.” 12 months ago, maybe. But everyone has now seen what this Supreme Court is doing. _This is the time_ to present the electorate with a credible and decisive plan to stop this and tell them to get out and vote for it. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/24 "2022-07-07T14:58:06Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But everyone has now seen what this Supreme Court is doing. Never underestimate the complacency of the American people. > [@Riemann](#): > > _This is the time_ to present the electorate with a credible and decisive plan to stop this and tell them to get out and vote for it. I agree, but if it backfires, we’re screwed. And if we don’t do it, we’re screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/25 "2022-07-07T15:16:30Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > if it backfires, we’re screwed What would constitute “backfiring” under these circumstances? How could it be worse? What exactly are you seeking to preserve with a “safe” milquetoast strategy? If people of this country won’t get out and vote to preserve democracy, they will get the consequences they deserve, but we have to try. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/26 "2022-07-07T15:18:29Z")
First step is to win the November elections. I think your strategy reduces those chances because the milquetoast Americans who might otherwise vote for the Democrats might be scared by the idea of expanding SCOTUS. Marshall’s strategy (the one I described) offers the promise of an abortion rights bill, which is very popular and should motivate pro choice Democrats and independents, including those who might be turned off by expanding SCOTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/27 "2022-07-07T15:24:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Marshall’s strategy (the one I described) Can you please link to this? I agree with your take that these moves might be more successful in motivating voters this fall than a court-packing plan. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/28 "2022-07-07T15:27:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > First step is to win the November elections. I think your strategy reduces those chances because the milquetoast Americans who might otherwise vote for the Democrats might be scared by the idea of expanding SCOTUS I agree with this. Living in a democracy, you don’t always get your way. That’s true about abortion rights, gun laws, and environmental regulation. If we promoting gaming the system (packing the court) when we don’t get the results we want, we’re not that much better than the republicans who gerrymander or try (through “legal” means) to suppress voting. Is adding four justices we think will vote our way that much worse than preventing a vote for Judge Garland? Maybe, but I’m not sure. (Yes, I know the number of justices has changed throughout our history. But we’re not saying 13 justices makes more sense in the abstract, we’re saying we want four more justices to vote our way) We need to get more people to vote the right way, for a long enough period of time, and things will swing back in the right direction. I’m not at all sure we can do that, and that sucks. Unfortunately, a huge number of our fellow citizens are deplorable. Many more “see things differently,” for reasons I can’t fathom. Perhaps we’re doomed. Supporting the immediate expansion of the Supreme Court won’t save us, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/29 "2022-07-07T15:29:45Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > How could it be worse? Seriously, dude? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/30 "2022-07-07T15:39:57Z")
[https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/heres-why-its-critical-to-pass-a-roe-law-no-matter-what-the-court-does](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/heres-why-its-critical-to-pass-a-roe-law-no-matter-what-the-court-does) Possible paywall. Snippet: " Some people say that there’s no point passing a _Roe_ law if you don’t reform the Court at the same time. That’s wrong. The clearest tools Congress has to rein in a corrupt Court are by either removing this issue from the Court’s appellate jurisdiction or simply adding more Justices to the Court. Both are clearly within Congress’s constitutional powers. At the moment, unfortunately, the political will and support to do those things does not exist. If you insist on making it a package deal — both pass a _Roe_ law and bar the Court from overturning it at the same time — the outcome will be coalitional infighting and stalemate, the result of which will be nothing happening. That means no _Roe_ law and no election win that would even make it possible. How do you build support and a constituency to rein in the Court if it doesn’t exist now? Easy. Basically have the Court strike down a _Roe_ law. It’s worth walking through just how that scenario plays out. That scenario would mean that the Court overruled _Roe_ and that this triggered a backlash in which what seemed like the certain losers in the midterm election came back and won the election on the basis of that backlash. With that mandate, the new Congress passed a law making _Roe_‘s protections the law of the land. Then immediately the Court concocted a new set of purported founding principles that determine Congress wasn’t allowed to do that. This is what I mean when I say that even though the risk of the Court striking down a _Roe_ law is overstated, if you do think reforming the Court is necessary the clearest path to doing so is to pass such a law, dare the Court to strike down and then take away that power once they do so." ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/31 "2022-07-07T15:58:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > … pass a _Roe_ law and bar the Court from overturning it at the same time … How can you bar the SCOTUS from overturning a law? I thought that was the whole point of having a Supreme Court – to overturn laws that it finds unconstitutional. If they can just somehow make laws SCOTUS-proof, why doesn’t Congress do it with every law? I did appreciate this quote from the article: > Both as law and politics, it’s a very different thing to rule that there is no constitutional right to an abortion and decide that Congress has no right to make a law making abortion legal. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/32 "2022-07-07T15:59:14Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Seriously, dude? Well, what? “We might upset the Republicans then they’d be really mean back to us”? We might lose control of the Senate? We’re already hamstrung in the Senate. The Republicans might add two _more_ theocratic justices? What difference would that make? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/33 "2022-07-07T15:59:39Z")
Not sure about the particulars, but I think the Constitution gives congress that power. But that’s just one possibility of it’s overturned - the other is expanding the court. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/34 "2022-07-07T16:14:46Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > How can you bar the SCOTUS from overturning a law? I thought that was the whole point of having a Supreme Court – to overturn laws that it finds unconstitutional. > [@The Constitution Article III](#): > > the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. So, yeah, Congress can make a law exempt from Judicial Review. > [@Akaj](#): > > If they can just somehow make laws SCOTUS-proof, why doesn’t Congress do it with every law? It would be taken as an admission that the law in question was unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/35 "2022-07-07T16:16:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > First step is to win the November elections. No, the first step is to have November elections. What’s your plan for ensuring that? Remember, the next major case the Supreme Court is set to decide is whether the people have the right to vote for our leaders. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/36 "2022-07-07T16:18:26Z")
I’m working on it! I’ve got a call with the white house next week to offer my suggestions, so I’ve got some time. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/37 "2022-07-07T16:29:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Congress can make a law exempt from Judicial Review. TIL! Has this ever been done? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/38 "2022-07-07T16:34:26Z")
Uh, no, I meant, everyone knows to not actually say the words “how can it get any worse?”! And to me, it can get worse in terms of probability of success, not necessarily in actual results. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/39 "2022-07-07T17:08:18Z")
This is not my area of expertise, but apparently, it has. > **[Jurisdiction stripping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction_stripping)** > > In United States law, jurisdiction-stripping (also called court-stripping or curtailment-of-jurisdiction), is the limiting or reducing of a court's jurisdiction by Congress through its constitutional authority to determine the jurisdiction of federal courts and to exclude or remove federal cases from state courts. > Congress may define the jurisdiction of the judiciary through the simultaneous use of two powers. First, Congress holds the power to create (and, implicitly, to define the jurisdiction... > [@](#): > > More recent examples of jurisdiction stripping include the following: > > - [Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_Immigration_Reform_and_Immigrant_Responsibility_Act_of_1996) (inter alia, stripped the federal judiciary of its jurisdiction to review certain [Immigration and Naturalization Service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Naturalization_Service) decisions), > - [Prison Litigation Reform Act of 1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Litigation_Reform_Act) (restricting the remedies available to prison inmates), > - [Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiterrorism_and_Effective_Death_Penalty_Act_of_1996) (limiting the number of [habeas corpus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus) petitions available to prison inmates),[[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction_stripping#cite_note-28) > - [Detainee Treatment Act of 2005](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detainee_Treatment_Act_of_2005), ruled as unconstitutional denial of the right of [habeas corpus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus) pursuant to the [Suspension clause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_clause) in the case of _[Hamdan v. Rumsfeld](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdan_v._Rumsfeld)_ (2006). > - [Military Commissions Act of 2006](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Commissions_Act_of_2006) (Strip all Federal Courts of the U.S. jurisdiction to hear appeal or cases from Guantanamo Bay Detainee) Ruled Unconstitutional in the case of _[Boumediene v. Bush](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boumediene_v._Bush)_ (2008). > > There have also been hundreds of unsuccessful bills in Congress to strip federal courts of jurisdiction.[[29]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction_stripping#cite_note-29)[[30]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction_stripping#cite_note-30) It seems complicated and above my paygrade, but it does seem to be something that congress is able to do under certain circumstances if it wants to. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2022, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532/40 "2022-07-07T18:53:26Z")
Thanks for the research. IANAL, either, but a lot of those look like laws passed _specifically_ to deny judicial review of _other_ laws and procedures, not laws passed with some sort of special anti-SCOTUS review coating. It’s also interesting how a few of these were, in fact, ruled unconstitutional. So laws passed to deny judicial review were overturned by judicial review. Anyway, interesting hijack! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-biden-and-anyone-else-not-supporting-immediate-expansion-of-the-supreme-court/967532.md?page=3)