The insulting tone of your OP aside, where do you get the idea that a hairstyle is “trying to be white” or trying to attain a “white” standard of beauty?
There is a standard of beauty in America. It includes, but is not limited to, clear skin, attractive features, and extreme thinness.
FTR, many women with stick straigh hair, curl, crimp and perm their hair
This is a standard that’s held by hollyweird and the fashion industry. Out in the real world, it’s a lot less restrictive, as all shapes, sizes and races of women are considered attractive, right on up to beautiful.
You seem to be confusing the AMERICAN standard of beauty with one of the WHITE standard of beauty. Many ethnic women also have clear skin, attractive features and slim or fit bodies.
Our culture values these things. True. But most of the features within your “white standard of beauty” are attainable by all races. The only slight exception is the hair of black women.
So this so-called “white” standard of beauty isn’t “white”. It’s American. Look in the mags and catalogs. Plenty of gorgeous ethnic women.
So the fact that some black women relax or straighten their hair? IMHO? So what? They’re still quite black, and quite beautiful with OR without having their hair straightened. So please, explain how a mere hairstyle change mean’s they’re “selling out”.
Personally, I’m kind of jealous of black women–they can do all kinds of awesome things to their hair that would not work at all on my thin, wispy locks. Crimps, curls, braids, weave, twists–if I had any of these done to my hair, it’s go all limp and come undone after a day or two. But black women can have gorgeous hair for weeks between their getting their hair done again.
(I’m white, by the way. I go to an inner city school, and I am so jealous of a lot of my classmates’ hair.)
CanvasShoes’s very eloquent argument is what I’d say if I didn’t have a dog in this fight.
Since I do –
What I choose to do with the hair on my head and my motivations for doing so are my business. No one else’s. Maybe my husband’s, to some extent, because I like looking attractive to him. But beyond that, nope. If I straighten it, if I lock it, if I braid it, if I twist it, if I shave it off, if I wear an afro two feet tall, it’s my choice.
And it’s not open to debate. Not amongst my friends, my colleagues, my family and sure as well not among strangers.
You may think, hydrocortisone, that you indict some class of people with your ridiculous, sweeping generalizations, but you don’t. You’re talking about individuals, people who are free to make their own choices and do not need your approval or your input in any fashion.
So, in short, shut the hell up. Your uninformed racist ramblings are unneeded and unwanted. Just shut the hell up.
I am so sick of most white women selling out their race by trying to look dark. What do I mean you ask? Look at most white women’s skin in America. They do their best to try to make it look dark, like a dark woman’s skin. Well, that is not the way God/Nature made white women’s skin. We are never going to get over the tanned standard of beauty in America if whites continue to try to look dark. So ladies, you have pale faces. deal with it. Stop trying to look dark
Me too, both the “I’m white” thing and the “I’m jealous” thing.
Black women have that gorgeous skin, that NON aging freaking skin. We white girls look like prunes by the time we’re 50, black girls? Still look like girls grrrrrrrrr.
Not to mention their strong resolve and attitudes toward men (as in they don’t take any crap). Or is that just an Alaskan black girl thing?
I think this hits it on the head. I’m white, and have thick, curly hair. If I could afford to get it regularly straightened, I would. I straighten it whenever I have the time and energy to do so, because it’s just easier to manage, plus, it’s nice to have a “change.”
I’m with LilCutie, firmly in the “if you haven’t had to deal with that kind of hair, shut the hell up about what should be done with it” camp.
And for Og’s sake, quit starting lame ass threads like this, then abandoning them because you’re too chicken shit to even try and hold your own in a conversation about the subject you brought up.
Bollox. While I think people should be free to do what they want with their looks, there is no denying that “whiteness” - or “caucasianness” is a prevailing world standard for beauty. This is a sad and abhorrent thing, but ask anyone in beauty merchandising or plastic surgery the amount of money spent in:
eye “widenening” (predominantly for Asian people) and enlargeing
skin bleach and skin lightening
hair bleach and lightening
blue contact lenses
nose thinning
compared to
nose widening
skin darkening (yes - we have tanning - but count the number of women trying to lighten compared to those trying to darken - there’ s a billion people in India alone)
hair frizzing
eye narrowing and making smaller
Look at the most famous and successful black actresses, and count the number of them that have mixed heritage.
I would love to live in a world where looks of all “races”/ethnic groups are considered of equal beauty, but it is not so. So while we shouldn’t blame the victims, we should at least acknowledge that there is a reason why people like my filipino chinese friend quit their job as a TV reporter after being told to get surgery for a more “western” nose. One day her beautiful “asian” nose will get the recognition it deserves in her beautiful “asian” face, but it is not so today.
istara, let me concede your point that there are more ethnic women trying to look white than white women trying to look ethnic. It’s wrong that women should feel pressured into fitting into a certain mold. But does that mean that no black woman should be free to straighten her hair for fear of being labeled a “sell-out”? Let me make an analogy for you, that is very personal to me. About 13 years ago, I stopped working outside of the home so I could raise my kids. I got all kinds of backlash from some overly-persistent feminists. “You can be anything you want to be!” was their war-cry. “When are you going to get a real job?” was a question I heard many times. What it boiled down to was this: I could be anything I wanted to be, as long as it fit into a narrow perception they had of what women should be. I was Woman! I was Free! But, still, according to their philoshophy, I couldn’t (or shouldn’t) be what I really wanted to be-a stay at home mom. Because it hurt the Cause of Feminism. I had a sister who went so far as to tell me that I didn’t really want to stay home and take care of the kids, I had just been brainwashed into thinking that was what I wanted!
So, in that case it was “It should be okay to be anything you want, so you shouldn’t want to be a homemaker”, and in this case it’s “It should be okay to have any kind of hair, so you shouldn’t want hair that looks less ethnic”. When you talk about personal freedom, neither statement makes any damned sense!
Another jealous white girl here–naturally stick-straight hair, which after years of perms I now have in a longish pageboy style that flips a little. But as I sit here this morning, this 22-degree morning, it’s not doing much flipping because I have total hat head. With the headband it’s not too bad, but the headband has long hair-breaking teeth because otherwise the hair flies and slides right out of it. Not only can Black women straighten their hair to look like mine, but theirs doesn’t seem to get static-y, flyaway, or just go dead limp either. Never mind the beautiful stuff I can only dream of that can be done with non-straightened or braided hair. Even if I put mine up in a bun I look like I’ve been taking an hourlong steambath within five minutes.
Anyway, a hint to the OP: if you want to talk about this, maybe start off by asking the women who do it why they do it, maybe a GQ thread entitled: ‘AA Women Dopers, do you straighten your hair, and why?’. Or, a little more aggressive, a Great Debate: ‘Are Black Women Who Straighten Trying to Conform to a Standard that Devalues Them?’ or something. Both are much more benign that a BBQ thread all but accusing women who change their crowning glory of selling out.
Aww, isn’t that cute? **Rooves **is trying to be disingenuous, and actually thinks he is fooling someone. You’re not- so save your breath and your pathetic schoolyard attempts at an insult.
You have been trying to sell your persecuted bill of goods here for a while and nobody is buying it, so can kindly open a whole case of STFU already. See, that’s the thing- your posts are easily seached and motives easily exposed. Those links are dead on. Your whiny post had little to do with Hydro’s inane comments, and everything to do with the roasting you have received on several occasions. Lest you claim they never happened, I decided it was easier to provide the Cites up front.
Obviously, it is easier to claim that there is a poor oppressed group of morons subject to the completely random and meritless Pittings of the SDMB, than to admit you acted like an idiot and got rightfully blasted for it. I guess Revisionist History is all the vogue lately, but alas, you’re not Donald Rumsfled and this isn’t the Fox News Channel so go peddle your bullshit elsewhere cause nobody is buying it.
norinew - absolutely no gripe with that. People have the perfect right to look like they want to look. If someone wants sleek blonde hair, fine. I don’t consider black women are in any way “selling out” by going Beyonce.
I do think it is sad however if they feel pressured to do this, or feel that their more traditional ethnic looks are less acceptable/attractive/fashionable than that of their mixed race or paler skinned sister.
Aha, but because you use the Oil it doesn’t LOOK like it does!
Seven hours later and my hair is still flat and brushing just makes it limper. Oh well. Now, if Kyan was here, I’d have Product to make it look nice, but he ain’t so I don’t.
However, at the risk of being branded a racist, I will say that IMHO, mixed race women are often more beautiful than black women. Also more beautiful than white women. Just something about that cafe au lait skin color. I’m about as white as traditional Fruit Of The Looms, and I would kill to have skin that color! Again, this statement is not intended to be racist, just my personal opinion of what’s beautiful.
I think people need to understand the idea that because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean it is the right thing to do. Of course black women have the right to do to their hair whatever they want. However, there are consequences to their actions. They are supporting the white standard of beauty.
To those that say it is just the American standard of beauty and has nothing to do with race, I guess it is just a coincidence that the American standard of beauty is made up of white features?
I find that true of mixed race of other types - eg East Asian/Caucasian, or East Asian/Afro Carribean.
Maybe it’s something to do with beauty approximating the norm? So when you have a merge between two distinctly different facial types, you get more of an averageing out effect? (Which according to New Scientist aeons ago so I can’t cite it exactly is one of the main tests for aesthetic perfection - “averageness” )
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