# Pitting Bush forStuff That Isn't Worth Its Own Thread, Early 2006 Edition **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2006, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807 "2006-03-17T20:52:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/61 "2006-03-19T22:46:23Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > And they are still able to make fear work–just invoke the word “terror” and it is surprising how many people cower in a corner and accept all manner of intrusion–these same people who decry the government poking its nose into their business. Yeah. I still marvel at how much less obviously ludicrous a certain quote from a farcical lampoon of paranoid conspiracy theories has become in the past few years: > [@Illuminatus! by Shea & Wilson (1975)](#): > > “…the Illuminati will have the American people under tighter surveillance than Hitler had the Germans. And the beauty of it is, the majority of the Americans will have been so frightened by Illuminati-backed terrorist incidents that they will beg to be controlled as a masochist begs for the whip.” ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/62 "2006-03-20T10:20:23Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Sure-you count. When did you apologize for voting for Dubya? I am sorry I missed it. I might stand corrected, but I believe back during the election, **Airman Doors** did say he was NOT going to vote for Dubya… Personally, I am still amazed that anyone could possibly think Dubya has done one single good thing for this country…he has to be the worst person ever elected as POTUS in my lifetime, and that says a lot as I can still remember Nixon and LBJ. I think Dubya simply does not have a soul, and could give a rat’s ass about the environment and future generations. He has singlehandedly turned world opinion against the USA, has spawned a new generation of terrorists and is leaving a legacy of hatred that will take decades to repair, if ever. Plus, the USA should just about be bankrupt by the time he leaves office, but his cronies will have more money than god. It was a dark day when he first got elected, but his re-election will go down in history as a turning point in the history of the USA when corruption and the slow dismantling of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights became the norm. I will give Dubya credit for one thing - he was the first to realize that wrapping yourself in an American flag and spewing the name of god will gather enough votes to get you elected over and over and over again no matter how hypocritical you are. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/63 "2006-03-20T12:04:01Z")
Nah-He learned that from Reagan. I dunno if I am being whooshed with the Illuminati stuff, but this country seems to have a love hate relationship with fear. Oh, we’re terrified of sex being on TV, so we make violence sexier and sexier–personally, I think there must be some kind of pleasure derived from that color chart (will we ever be off orange?). It makes life exciting. I don’t agree with it and think it’s damned twisted, but the constant prodding of our anxieties is a very effective weapon. When I speak to Republicans now (in RL), most of them seem to come back to “Bush kept us safe.” I no longer try to argue-if they still think that, after all this time, there is no educating them. Keep in mind that these are college educated, successful people-but who are not particularly politically savvy. They read the headlines or listen to sound bites–there is very little in depth exploration of issues going on (I don’t mean Reps in general-although I believe that to be true-I mean these Reps that I run across in RL). But it is a sad statement when people like this don’t bother to explore issues more deeply. It’s all very black and white: Muslim=bad, Dems=ruining the country, profit above all=good no matter what. I guess simplistic makes it easier to handle, somehow? By no means do I mean to say that the more progressive among us do take the time to delve–most of them just bitch about the current times. Heck, it’s a full time job to keep up with some of the chicanery! ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/64 "2006-03-20T16:31:18Z")
> [@Ukulele Ike](#): > > These would be the engineers of the companies for which the Administration or its agents chose to bypass the normal bidding process for awarding contracts, right? Dunno, Uke. Were the contracts to build these particular power plants awarded on a no-bid basis? If you, as an ex-book editor, were reviewing a manuscript, the story in which hinged on these details, would you insist the details were fact-checked? Or would you just give 'em a pass? > [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Ah, the buck stops somewhere else argument. Don’t you see within your own apologism the ironic defense of “maybe nobody in the Bush administration knew how they were planning on fueling the power plants?” Your argument is essentially ‘Maybe they were too incompetent/uninformed/disconnected to catch the problem, but we can’t know for sure who made the decision?’ Sheesh. If there is always a nasty smell around one particular co-worker, eventually you have to stop shrugging your shoulders and wondering who farted. Well, no. That’s not my argument. My argument, and perhaps it wasn’t properly elucidated, is that it’s incumbent upon RTF, if he wants to make an issue of this power plant fiasco, that he show us it’s a real issue. I’m not absolving anyone (and if you’d read more carefully, that would be quite obvious); I’m merely pointing that before his bitch can be considered valid, he’s gotta do some groundwork. Doing that, one might find that one’s stinky co-worker isn’t just a prolific farter; he might, in fact, have some medical condition. Or maybe he just stepped in some dogshit. > [@Merijeek](#): > > UncleBeer, certainly the bids on those generators are on file somewhere, aren’t they? Beats the fuck outta me. Like I said just above, it oughtta be whoever is bitching who should make sure they’re bitch is legitimate before laying it out here. But I _can_ gauran-damn-tee it wasnt’ a Bush administration official who designed the feckin’ things. > [@Voyager](#): > > Uncle Beer, the article I linked to in the other thread says that we spent a third of a billion buck on generators that are useless there. So, who got fired? Which contractor paid the price for screwing up? I don’t know who, if anyone, got fired. Or which, if any, contractor was fined. I don’t know the details of the contracts. It doesn’t really matter. RTF is bitching about the incompetence of the Bush administration; the internal workings of the contractors aren’t part of Bush’s jurisdiction. And before we can decide if the contractor(s) can be fined for non-fullfillment of their promises, we’d need to see the contracts. Again, that’s RTF’s domain. He’s gotta show that his gripe is justified and that he’s not just blowing hot air. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > UncleBeer: what Voyager, Cheesesteak, and Hentor said. So you don’t think that before you lay something out here and try to make an issue of it, you should do some fact-checking first? You think that because Bush and his administration has pulled a number (a large number granted) of balls-ups in the past, that every fuck-up hence forth can be laid at their feet? Pardon me, but I think that’s pretty intellectually lazy and sloppy. Bush has no credibility with many folks here and has been called “incurious” and “intellectually lazy” because he can’t be bothered with details and facts. But you’re willing to take the same tack? Curious. Look. This is whole thing is just a critical thinking exercise. Seems to me there are far too many folks here willing to evade that effort simply because it’s easier to reach a snap decision that fits one’s own biases. You guys wanna circumvent that useful process, then that’s fine, I guess. Me, I’d prefer my opinions and conclusions are built on a firmer foundation. You can’t build knowledge without facts. And here we’ve scant few. Look at this this way. What would y’all think of guys like James Randi and Joe Nickell, if they just waved away persons claiming exceptional abilities and the occurrence of weird phenomena? These guys have made their names and reputations on fairness - they thoroughly investigate all (or most) comers. It would be all to easy for them say, “Dowsing? I look at one of you guys a few years ago. You’re fulla shit.” But they don’t do that. And they’re respected because they’re willing to investigate - as many times as necessary. If they weren’t, or didn’t, they’d have no more credibility than claimants of such. I’d hope that people are here because they aspire to more. But I guess maybe I’m asking too much. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I guess there are two ways you can look at this thread-either you are tired of all the questions, or you are tired of never getting the answers to the questions. And a third. You’re tired of people who won’t investigate the facts before making up an answer. Which is where I’m at. And I’m getting really tired of being labeled a “Bush apologist” simply because I ask for facts and take umbrage at ideas and opinions offered without 'em. Critical thinking is even more important in the political arena that it is when one thinks about astrology. Events and personalities in the government are far more likely to have a significant effect on your existence that whether you always wear blue socks on Tuesdays. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > By no means do I mean to say that the more progressive among us do take the time to delve–most of them just bitch about the current times. Exactly. And that’s the gist of my complaint. One I’ve been making repeatedly here. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/65 "2006-03-20T17:46:43Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > So you don’t think that before you lay something out here and try to make an issue of it, you should do some fact-checking first? What’s there to check? That normally, a government contract for one-third of a billion bucks would be done under some sort of ongoing government supervision? Yup. Would it normally involve periodic review by political appointees? Yep. Given that amount of money, normally fairly high up? That too. At least in my end of the government. So I’m trying to think of a way this _doesn’t_ have anything to do with the Bush Administration. Either this decision was reviewed by Bush political appointees, who fucked it up in the usual fashion, or there was an inappropriate absence of oversight. Either way, it lands on their doorstep. > [@](#): > > Look. This is whole thing is just a critical thinking exercise. Absofuckinglutely. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/66 "2006-03-20T18:52:59Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I don’t know who, if anyone, got fired. Or which, if any, contractor was fined. I don’t know the details of the contracts. It doesn’t really matter. RTF is bitching about the incompetence of the Bush administration; the internal workings of the contractors aren’t part of Bush’s jurisdiction. And before we can decide if the contractor(s) can be fined for non-fullfillment of their promises, we’d need to see the contracts. Again, that’s RTF’s domain. He’s gotta show that his gripe is justified and that he’s not just blowing hot air. Here are the responsible parties (not contractors.) > [@IEEE Spectrum](#): > > Today, the Ministry of Electricity is one of several Iraqi agencies working primarily with three U.S. government organizations to operate, maintain, and improve Iraq’s infrastructure. Two of these three U.S. organizations are temporary agencies created by a presidential directive in May 2004. One is the Iraqi Reconstruction Management Office (IRMO), which is part of the U.S. State Department. The other is the Iraq Project and Contracting Office (PCO), which was created specifically to oversee the $18.4 billion set aside by Congress in the fall of 2003 for Iraq’s reconstruction. The PCO was recently absorbed into the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which had previously had a separate presence in Iraq. [Link.](http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/feb06/2831) And more. > [@IEEE Spectrum](#): > > Suddenly, that gas I saw being flared across the street at the East Baghdad field seems all the more wasteful. The gas from just that one flare stack could fuel two of the LM6000s, the American engineer tells me. I ask the obvious question: why aren’t they building the pressurization system and short pipeline that could get the gas across the street to the combustion turbines? > > It turns out that just before the first Gulf War, in 1991, an Italian company had installed all of the infrastructure needed to capture, dry, pressurize, and clean up the natural gas at East Baghdad. But when the war broke out the Italians fled before they could get the system running. The equipment has lain there ever since, unused and sinking into disrepair. > > But just because the Iraqis had started putting in combustion turbines doesn’t mean the United States should have installed lots more of them, some experts contend. One U.S. engineer puts it bluntly: “It doesn’t mean it wasn’t a stupid thing to do.” To the dozen combustion units the Iraqis had bought under UNDP, the rebuilders added, or are adding, 30 more. > > Who decided to limit new generation plants to combustion turbines? “Absolutely everyone operating in Iraq at that time,” says a former official of the Coalition Provisional Authority, which ran Iraq in the war’s aftermath. The blame should be spread among the Army Corps of Engineers, USAID, PCO, CPA, the State Department—and also the Ministry of Electricity, this former official insists. > > But other officials and engineers, not only Iraqis but a few Americans, too, say that the Iraqi Ministry’s engineers were never happy with the plan to exclude steam plants. “The Iraqis, from the beginning, wanted steam plants,” declares the U.S. power-generation engineer who was there at the time. > > The perceived problem with steam plants, everyone agrees, was that they take three to five years to build. “Both the Iraqis and the U.S. wanted results in months (if not days) rather than years,” the former CPA official writes in an e-mail. Combustion turbines can be installed in as few as 18 months. > > “The decisions were made based on expedience, not technical soundness,” the U.S. engineer concludes. > > And, it seems, nobody was really thinking about how to fuel the combustion turbines. “The gas-infrastructure arguments started in late February 2004”—months after the turbines were ordered, that engineer recalls. “Prior to that, there was no champion for gas. The assumption was that there would be fuels available. It wasn’t until February of '04 that they realized that there were going to be severe fuel problems.” As I mentioned, one plant has a gas supply across the street. Why was it not connected? > [@](#): > > At Quds, though, no long pipeline is needed, because the gas comes out of the ground literally across the street from the power plant. So yet another project, called the East Baghdad Oil-Gas project, has been proposed to get the gas to Quds. Because the costs of buying and trucking diesel fuel from Turkey are so high, the projected $33 million cost of the project would be recovered within three months of completion, the generation specialist says. Still, the project was recently shelved as Iraqi and U.S. officials balked at its cost at a time when funds were being shifted to security. “It’s insane,” the PCO generation specialist in Iraq says of the decision. So the incompetence is on all fronts. No sign of contractor corruption - though some money did disappear - probably into Iraqi pockets. So, where does the buck stop? We know where it starts - our pockets. I read in the paper this morning that a recent poll showed that the word most connected to this administration today by the American people is incompetence. Wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/67 "2006-03-20T19:43:24Z")
> [@](#): > > So I’m trying to think of a way this doesn’t have anything to do with the Bush Administration. Either this decision was reviewed by Bush political appointees, who fucked it up in the usual fashion, or there was an inappropriate absence of oversight. Either way, it lands on their doorstep. Utter horsehit. If your reasoning abilities aren’t up to the task, then it’s no surprise you can’t think of anything except the rut you’re stuck in. There’s no reason we can’t check the damn facts. If the reality of the situtation is so friggin’ obvious then it oughtta be that much easier a chore. But it ain’t. Fer instance, I’m having trouble verifiying Sam’s claims of plants that can’t be fueled and nowhere do I find a $300+ million figure attached to any power plant expenditures. I can easily think of a third - and fairly obvious - possibility which seems to have completely eluded you. The government inspectors and/or contract oversight personnel have been misled, or outright lied to and defrauded. And frankly, given the contract administration environment in Iraq, and the revelations about how much money has gone missing through nefarious intent, that seems a very strong possibility to me. Here’s a fourth. The plants and the plan were approved by the interim government in Iraq - not by Bush functionaries. And a fifth. I can just as easily think of a reason for initially fitting the power plants to run on natural gas. It may have been a more reliably supplied fuel at that point than it is now; more easily obtained than the petroleum was then. Is it not possible thatt was deemed more important to build a plant and begin producing electricity quickly than it was to wait until petroleum was available? Sixth (and a bit nefarious if true, but which might also go hand-in-hand with my #3. The Americans built natural gas powered electric plants so that it would seem more reasonable later to build a pipeline to deliver such. This would have the dual effects of generating another contract for somebody and also make the oil not used to fuel the Iraqi power plants available on the market to other countries later on. There’s lots of stuff to be looked at and checked before your claim can be validated. Mind, of course, I’m not claiming any of this to be what actually happened, or to be true in any way. I merely present them as possible alternatives to be investigated before one can come to a rational conclusion. You’ve seen something that fits your preconceived notions of incompetence and/or corruption in the Bush administration and made a leap of logic. There are, however, many alternative explanations which you’ve not only fail to initially recognize, but absolutely refuse to admit might exist and give consideration to. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/68 "2006-03-20T19:49:23Z")
And now I see Voyager while I was typing that up, seems to have a source which confirms at least one of my hypotheses. Specifically, that expediency took precendence over technical issues. Also notable, is that immediate results were desired not just by the U.S. (which I think we’ll both agree means the Bush administration), but by the Iraqi provisional government, too. But nope, can’t consider that. This is a fuck-up and it belongs to Bush is the only way you’ll have it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/69 "2006-03-20T20:26:14Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > And now I see Voyager while I was typing that up, seems to have a source which confirms at least one of my hypotheses. Specifically, that expediency took precendence over technical issues. Also notable, is that immediate results were desired not just by the U.S. (which I think we’ll both agree means the Bush administration), but by the Iraqi provisional government, too. > > But nope, can’t consider that. This is a fuck-up and it belongs to Bush is the only way you’ll have it. Jeez - if doing things in a rush supports your argument, well okey dokey. And of course the Iraqis wanted their electricity back on. No shit, sherlock. The problem is that there was no plan in the first place to prevent the need for doing a rush job, and this was further fucked by the staffing of key CPA positions with kids from the Heritage Foundation job-seekers website. If you’ve forgotten this, [here’s a reminder](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A48543-2004May22?language=printer). > [@](#): > > They had been hired to perform a low-level task: collecting and organizing statistics, surveys and wish lists from the Iraqi ministries for a report that would be presented to potential donors at the end of the month. But as suicide bombs and rocket attacks became almost daily occurrences, more and more senior staffers defected. In short order, six of the new young hires found themselves managing the country’s $13 billion budget, making decisions affecting millions of Iraqis. So, did Bush specifically make a proactive decision regarding how the power plants would function? No. If that is what you are willing to hold Bush to account for, I won’t be surprised. But a non-apologist might hope for greater accountability, and Bush certainly should be held to account for invading Iraq and explicitly rejecting pre-invasion planning and estimates that did not accord with the model he and his administration was pushing. But this is a fuck-up by a contractor for which Bush is to be absolved is the only way you’ll have it. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/70 "2006-03-20T21:33:44Z")
> [@](#): > > But this is a fuck-up by a contractor for which Bush is to be absolved is the only way you’ll have it. You don’t read very fucking well, do you? I’ve specifically stated twice today that I’m not absolving anyone. Only that a more detailed inspection of the facts is in order before we rush to judgment. Goddamn, I hope you and RTF are never on the grand jury that’s investigating indicting me - or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/71 "2006-03-20T22:39:11Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > And now I see Voyager while I was typing that up, seems to have a source which confirms at least one of my hypotheses. Whine. Bitch. Whine. “Sure we dropped your trailer into the pond that used to be your lot. But at least we did it fast!” Perhaps the people you’re defending are just FUCKING INCOMPETENT? Nah, can’t be. Certainly the lack of, you know, auditing is a Librul Conspiracy? It can’t be the fact that shovelling out BILLIONS of dollars without sufficient oversight is a good way to make sure lots of money disappears. Nah. Can’t be. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/72 "2006-03-20T22:43:20Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > You don’t read very fucking well, do you? I’ve specifically stated twice today that I’m not absolving anyone. Only that a more detailed inspection of the facts is in order before we rush to judgment. Goddamn, I hope you and RTF are never on the grand jury that’s investigating indicting me - or anyone else. [Get a new fucking trick already (see post 15)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=363558) But the really entertaining bit is how you’ll tell us that **this** is toooootally different. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/73 "2006-03-21T00:34:56Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > And now I see Voyager while I was typing that up, seems to have a source which confirms at least one of my hypotheses. Specifically, that expediency took precendence over technical issues. Also notable, is that immediate results were desired not just by the U.S. (which I think we’ll both agree means the Bush administration), but by the Iraqi provisional government, too. > > But nope, can’t consider that. This is a fuck-up and it belongs to Bush is the only way you’ll have it. Read the link. The incompetence was not getting it fast, the incompetence was never bothering to figure out where they were going to get their fuel from. The link further points out that the plants they bought are much harder to maintain than the other type, also an issue. I’m hardly absolving the Iraqi government. They’re keeping unrealistically low electricity prices, set during the Saddam days, that builds demand while there is still inadequate supply. There was inadequate capacity before the war, btw, but Saddam kept Baghdad lit at the expense of the rest of the country. It’s more equitable now, which is why things are worse in Baghdad. But it also means that just getting to pre-war levels won’t do, especially with the rise in demand. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/74 "2006-03-21T01:34:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > One wonders exactly what confluence of circumstances would make criticism of the President—of _all_ the wrongdoings of his administration—a legitimate enterprise. There are no such circumstances. I guess you didn’t get the memo? All dissent about **anything** means “the terrorists have already won”. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/75 "2006-03-21T01:44:26Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > I always find it amazing how having rights violated is ‘no big deal’ - but man, you suggest further regulations for firearms and suddenly it’s an “over my dead body” situation. > > -Joe Not necessarily so. I’ve been pretty consistent so far. I’m against warrantless wiretaps and searches (I’ve read the Constitution and the FISA), I’m against sneak and peek searches, I’m against endless incarceration without a trial (or even charges), I’m against torture (aggressive interrogation my ass), I was aganist the so-called “free speech zones”, I am pro-choice, I’m against compulsory participation in religious activities (school mandated prayer), and at the same time. I am pro-gun. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/76 "2006-03-21T01:56:07Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > There’s no reason we can’t check the damn facts. Absolutely none. But given that all roads lead back to Administration incompetence, is it that important? Only if you want to make the uphill argument that some other cause threaded the needle. > [@](#): > > If the reality of the situtation is so friggin’ obvious then it oughtta be that much easier a chore. But it ain’t. Fer instance, I’m having trouble verifiying Sam’s claims of plants that can’t be fueled and nowhere do I find a $300+ million figure attached to any power plant expenditures. [Second link down, on first Google attempt](http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/reconstruct/2005/1225missteps.htm): > [@](#): > > Iraq has such gas in abundance, but it uses only a fraction of it. The rest is burned off during oil production. > > The U.S. spent hundreds of millions of dollars to purchase and install natural-gas-fired generators in electricity plants throughout Iraq. But pipelines needed to transport the gas weren’t built because Iraq’s Oil Ministry, with U.S. encouragement, concentrated instead on boosting oil production to bring in hard currency for the nation’s cash-starved economy. > > In at least one case, the U.S. paid San Francisco-based Bechtel Corp. $69 million for a natural-gas-fired plant that was never built, according to State Department documents and U.S. officials. All told, of 26 natural gas turbines installed at seven plants in Iraq — ranging in cost from a few million dollars to more than $40 million — only seven are burning natural gas, reconstruction officials said. > [@UncleBeer](#): > > I can easily think of a third - and fairly obvious - possibility which seems to have completely eluded you. The government inspectors and/or contract oversight personnel have been misled, or outright lied to and defrauded. And frankly, given the contract administration environment in Iraq, and the revelations about how much money has gone missing through nefarious intent, that seems a very strong possibility to me. Thank you for making my argument for me. You’re saying that _because_ the U.S. ran such a sloppy shop in Iraq - how is that _not_ about Bush Administration incompetence?! - it was easier for the contractors to get away with murder. > [@](#): > > Here’s a fourth. The plants and the plan were approved by the interim government in Iraq - not by Bush functionaries. Certainly possible, but kind of a longshot. First, by the time the provisional Iraqi government took over in mid-2004, the spiraling violence was putting a serious crimp in new contracts; most of the big ones were approved during the CPA era. Second, the provisional government that was theoretically sovereign during the last half of 2004, wasn’t very. Every agency had a bunch of Americans looking over their shoulders - a feature of the Transitional Administrative Law well publicized before Bremer fled. I’ll bet we even discussed it here on this board. Third, you’re an idiot if you give away that sort of money without having a hand in how it’s to be spent. > [@](#): > > And a fifth. I can just as easily think of a reason for initially fitting the power plants to run on natural gas. It may have been a more reliably supplied fuel at that point than it is now; more easily obtained than the petroleum was then. Is it not possible thatt was deemed more important to build a plant and begin producing electricity quickly than it was to wait until petroleum was available? See quote above. > [@](#): > > Sixth (and a bit nefarious if true, but which might also go hand-in-hand with my #3. The Americans built natural gas powered electric plants so that it would seem more reasonable later to build a pipeline to deliver such. This would have the dual effects of generating another contract for somebody and also make the oil not used to fuel the Iraqi power plants available on the market to other countries later on. That would be pretty Machiavellian - and pretty stupid. If time is of the essence - which it was - in solving Iraq’s problems, you rebuild the gas generators, and build the pipelines at the same time. One doesn’t work well without the other. > [@](#): > > There are, however, many alternative explanations which you’ve not only fail to initially recognize, but absolutely refuse to admit might exist and give consideration to. And it seems that all of them either come back to the same Bush Administration stupidity, incompetence, and unwillingness to do their homework, or they’re longshots. Like I said. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/77 "2006-03-21T14:13:55Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Not necessarily so. I’ve been pretty consistent so far. I’m against warrantless wiretaps and searches (I’ve read the Constitution and the FISA), I’m against sneak and peek searches, I’m against endless incarceration without a trial (or even charges), I’m against torture (aggressive interrogation my ass), I was aganist the so-called “free speech zones”, I am pro-choice, I’m against compulsory participation in religious activities (school mandated prayer), and at the same time. I am pro-gun. Right. So how many of the above are violations or abrogations of your rights? Nowhere above did you say, “I don’t mind being wiretapped because I’m not a terrorist” or “If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of”. I was really referring to people who say the above along with things like “Freedom of speech is a luxury we can’t afford at a time like this” while owning a bumper sticker that says “A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a gun is a subject” (saw that one yesterday). Seems like you’re generally ‘pro rights’. Cool with me. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/78 "2006-03-21T15:02:29Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Thank you for making my argument for me. You’re saying that _because_ the U.S. ran such a sloppy shop in Iraq - how is that _not_ about Bush Administration incompetence?! - it was easier for the contractors to get away with murder. I’m not making your point for you at all. Surely it’s possible for intelligent & dilligent & honest people/agencies to victim(s) of fraud, isn’t it? It sounds to me like you’re saying otherwise - that only persons and institutions which are incompetent can be victims of fraud. That can’t be what you’re saying because it’s patently absurd. > [@](#): > > Absolutely none. But given that all roads lead back to Administration incompetence, is it that important? Only if you want to make the uphill argument that some other cause threaded the needle. Of course it’s important. Or at least I think so. It’s the **only** intellectually honest approach. If you want indictments, (I’m using that term here not in its strict legal sense, but that may sense may, too be appropriate. I suspect you’d rather approve of a special prosecutor investigation into this.) you’re gonna have to prove your case. There’s no other way around it. You can’t just accuse people of malfeasance without corroborating the damn facts. Even iif you think there’s a pattern of such activity, you still gotta prove each instance. > [@](#): > > Certainly possible, but kind of a longshot. . . . Third, you’re an idiot if you give away that sort of money without having a hand in how it’s to be spent. Not so long a shot apparently. One of the links in the other thread has someone on the ground there claiming that an Iraqi agency also signed off on the power plant construction plans. Additionally, you might take note of the fact that the Iraqis have spent $24 billion of their own money on power plant reconstruction - more than the Americans actually. That, too, is in a link in the other thread. You’d have to be an idiot if you give away that sort of money without having a hand in how it’s to be spent. > [@Voyager](#): > > Read the link. The incompetence was not getting it fast, the incompetence was never bothering to figure out where they were going to get their fuel from. The link further points out that the plants they bought are much harder to maintain than the other type, also an issue. I’ve read the link. And I agree entirely with you (and the author of the IEEE article at that link) that the plan for reconstructing Iraq’s power plants was short-sighted and probably incompetently executed. I have never made a single argument against that. My sole argument, one more time because you still don’t appear to be getting it, is that the incompetence cannot necessarily and automatically laid at the feet of the Bush administration. There are many other entities which shared responsibility for the engineering, design, approval, construction and oversight of these gas-fueld power plants. Goddamn it, man. I can’t put it in any simpler terms. > [@Merijeek](#): > > But the really entertaining bit is how you’ll tell us that this is toooootally different. For the life of me, I can’t tell what possible relevance your link has to anything I’ve said here. > [@](#): > > Perhaps the people you’re defending are just FUCKING INCOMPETENT? Nah, can’t be. You don’t fucking read very well either. I’ve repeated my argument and my position for the last time in this post just above. If you don’t wanna accept that, that’s okay. But for fuck’s sake, please stop misrepresenting my position. And I find your comments about rights and guns to be utterly offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/79 "2006-03-21T16:26:27Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > And I find your comments about rights and guns to be utterly offensive. Awww, so sad. Is it inaccurate? No, it isn’t. Don’t like reality, deal with it. Don’t bitch at the messenger. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807/80 "2006-03-21T17:08:36Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Awww, so sad. > > Is it inaccurate? No, it isn’t. Don’t like reality, deal with it. Don’t bitch at the messenger. > > -Joe If messenger is an asshole such as yourself and all too often confuses the “message” with his own stupid and disgusting opinion, I’ll reserve the right to bitch at him if you don’t mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-bush-forstuff-that-isnt-worth-its-own-thread-early-2006-edition/348807.md?page=5)