# Pitting calm kiwi and others like him/her. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840 "2009-04-12T14:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/21 "2009-04-12T15:40:40Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Aren’t they ALL lying scumbags to some extent? How do you know a politician is lying? His lips are moving. Obama might be a lying scumbag (I personally think it’s too soon to tell, and would like to know specifically what you’re referring to so I can judge for myself), but Bush definitely was. Exactly–it tells us everything we need to know about Crafter Man that he manages to avoid calling Bush a lying scumbug after the last 8 years, but saves that special priviledge for Obama. Is the latter a big fat liar? Perhaps, but he’s still in double A while Bush was a major league Hall of Famer. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/22 "2009-04-12T15:44:14Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#): > > Exactly–it tells us everything we need to know about Crafter Man that he manages to avoid calling Bush a lying scumbug after the last 8 years, but saves that special priviledge for Obama. Is the latter a big fat liar? Perhaps, but he’s still in double A while Bush was a major league Hall of Famer. Right, if for no reason other than the fact that Bush lied for 8 years, and Obama has only had 3.5 months’ worth. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/23 "2009-04-12T15:50:26Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > I love my country, and as a career military officer, have defended the USA every day for literally my entire adult life. I just get really tired of the continuous stream of diatribe about ANY president that is wholly name-calling that serves no useful purpose. I say this in full sincerity: I really don’t think it’s worth investing this much of yourself in it. Demanding respect for an office from people who have no personal stake in it is a fool’s errand (and demanding it from American citizens is arguably even more so). You’re just going to give yourself ulcers. _Most_ of what people say serves no useful purpose. If you were looking for that, then opening a thread on “who to mock” is probably a bad place to start. You can love your country and still acknowledge and comment on the fact that the President appears to be a knobhead. It doesn’t traduce your service one whit to say so. Your wife’s right on this one, I’m afraid. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@Little\_Plastic\_Ninja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Plastic_Ninja)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/24 "2009-04-12T17:01:14Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > I love my country, and as a career military officer, have defended the USA every day for literally my entire adult life. I just get really tired of the continuous stream of diatribe about ANY president that is wholly name-calling that serves no useful purpose. I getcha. Dad was in the military, too, from when he was about 19-20 until he retired. He’s a Vietnam vet, and back when it was fashionable to despise them, he got his share of disgusting behavior directed at him. Years later, after his retirement, I asked him about his opinions of the President at the time, Mr. George W. Bush. Dad’s always been more conservative than I am, unsurprisingly. But his fury took my breath away. He believes in this country – really, truly believes that we are the hope of the world, the best nation that has ever been. He doesn’t have quite the same list as everyone else as to the man’s greatest faults and crimes, but I remember asking him once what he’d do if by some strange chance he had the opportunity to shake the President’s hand. “I’d get arrested,” he said. “Because I don’t think I could stop myself from punching him in the mouth.” That said, I think throwing in the odd “DUBYA R DUM” line into a conversation has no merit. We’ve heard, thanks. Next you’ll be telling us that weird stuff happens in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/25 "2009-04-12T17:17:51Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > If you don’t like what the people around here say, why don’t you get the fuck out?? Ha! _That’s_ not stupid! Because it’s wise to know what one’s opponents are thinking. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/26 "2009-04-12T17:19:10Z")
This is why it’s so much more convenient to have a separate head of state and a head of government. Nobody bothers to insult the Queen, or Mme. Jean for that matter, and when they insult Stephen Harper there’s no way to take that as an insult against the country or its system of government. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/27 "2009-04-12T17:24:21Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > If you don’t like the USA and you live here - either do something positive to make it better, or STFU and GTFO. > > If don’t like the USA and you don’t live here - good, STFO. So you never said anything bad about Saddam Hussein or Slobodan Milosevic out of respect for their offices, eh? Seeing how you don’t live in Iraq or Serbia & Montenegro, and everything. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/28 "2009-04-12T17:38:07Z")
So freedom of speech is only desirable for Americans? ---
**Author:** ![ReuvenB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9fc348/32.png) [@ReuvenB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReuvenB)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/29 "2009-04-12T17:43:29Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I need a cite for my opinion? :dubious: Yes. What specifically do you think he is lying about? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/30 "2009-04-12T18:17:41Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > Just for the record - I have the same emotion toward anybody, American or not, (e.g. comedians) who make personal attacks at the President ( **any** President, not just Bush). I think it is absolutely disrespectful of the position of the office, and I take all of these as a personal insult of this country. You’re a fucking idiot. For one thing, if i make a disparaging remark about a US President, it’s not intended as disrespect towards the office, but towards the individual who holds it. If you don’t like it, i couldn’t give a flying fuck. Also, i don’t have any particular, special respect for the office itself. Sure, it’s a powerful and important position, but it’s one that has been the source of plenty of boneheaded and idiotic decisions and policies, and there are times when it shows itself unworthy of respect. > [@Varrius](#): > > You all have the right to dislike The United States of America, and in this country you have the right to say what you wish. About the only intelligent thing you’ve said in the whole thread. > [@Varrius](#): > > If you don’t like the USA and you live here - either do something positive to make it better, or STFU and GTFO. > > If don’t like the USA and you don’t live here - good, STFO. I’ve lived in and visited quite a few countries in my life, and i’ve now lived in the US for about 8 years, and i’m always amazed at how many Americans get so het up when someone from another country criticizes the United States or its policies. From my admittedly unscientific observation, there is probably no country in the world (at least, the Western world) where criticism and disparagement of other nations and their leaders is such a popular pastime—at both an institutional, political level and a more personal, individual level—as in the United States. American politicians, media personalities, and many American citizens feel perfectly free to opine about how crappy other countries and their leaders are, on a regular basis. If you’re too much of a pussy to take this sort of shit, you probably should stop dealing it out so much. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/31 "2009-04-12T18:18:22Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > Saying Nixon did a bad thing or Kennedy did the wrong thing is different than the post about which I started this thread. As I said, if you want to express an opinion about someone’s action, that is fine. Calling the President of The United States a “joke” is not. Bush was a fucking joke. He was an ass clown mouth breathing moron that rose to power on a dubious election (nothing like a supreme court appointed Commander and Chimp) followed by capitalizing on fear from a terrorist attack to attack a country completely unrelated to Osama. Oh and he let Osama get away, and Aghganistan, which enabled Osama’s attack to fall back to the Taliban. Meanwhile he trashed the economy. He knew about the housing bubble but ran his lying war criminal mouth to focus on Iraq, trashing our budget then our economy. Oh and don’t forget the innocent people his administration tortured. Including an [kiddnapping an innocent Canadian](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maher_Arar) and having sent to Syria to be beaten with cords and brutalized for a year. The only reason he got out was Canada looks after their own. I guess you’re right. Bush wasn’t a joke. A tragedy and obscenity against all that’s right. Bush supporters are total scum. Either selfish immoral traitors or complete deluded morons. > [@](#): > > I love my country, and as a career military officer, have defended the USA every day for literally my entire adult life. I just get really tired of the continuous stream of diatribe about ANY president that is wholly name-calling that serves no useful purpose. Bush did more damage, economically, militarily, and libertarian to America then Al Qaeda could ever dream of. Think about that in your support of the torturing war criminal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/32 "2009-04-12T18:24:19Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Right, if for no reason other than the fact that Bush lied for 8 years, and Obama has only had 3.5 months’ worth. I await your list of Obama lies, or your retraction. We call people who believe things without proof crackpots. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/33 "2009-04-12T18:27:53Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > I await your list of Obama lies, or your retraction. > > We call people who believe things without proof crackpots. Call off the dogs. I voted for Obama. I also believe that all politicians lie: that’s a non-partisan non-statement . It’s part of the job description. Given that I believe this, I don’t think you can get nearly as much lying done in 3.5 months as you can in 8 years, so I think Obama is still in the clear for now. Also, I was joking. Re-fucking-LAX. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/34 "2009-04-12T18:56:22Z")
I just reread the OP, and I noted a dividing line in the arguement: > [@Varrius](#): > > I am sick of people like you making inane comments like this about the President of the United States! > > I am not defending any of his actions, nor am I condemning any. I am not saying that President Bush was a good/bad president. This rant is not about that. > > If you want to make a specific comment about **something he did** then by all means, bring some facts to support your point and flame on. I may agree or disagree with your opinion of the actions and we can have a civil discussion about it. But to out-and-out attack the person is reprehensible. > > I just wish I could go one day without hearing or reading something from the fucking “Bush-hating Bandwagon”, especially those who _ **don’t even live in this country** _ who resort to sophomoric name-calling. Up till this point, it’s reasonable: ‘don’t slag the president without a facts, citations and a well constructed argument, sophomoric name-calling is poor form’. Even saying ‘if you don’t live in this country you are less entitled to just reflexively slag the guy’ isn’t unreasonable - Cheney’s hunting buddies or the guy that delivers the paper to the Bushs may be entitled to opinions that people thousands of miles away are not. At this point I think the original thoughtful poster’s computer was commandeered by a John Birch member, possibly using Conficker: > [@Varrius](#): > > Just for the record - I have the same emotion toward anybody, American or not, (e.g. comedians) who make personal attacks at the President ( **any** President, not just Bush). I think it is absolutely disrespectful of the position of the office, and I take all of these as a personal insult of this country. > > You all have the right to dislike The United States of America, and in this country you have the right to say what you wish. > > If you don’t like the USA and you live here - either do something positive to make it better, or STFU and GTFO. > > If don’t like the USA and you don’t live here - good, STFO. Here’s where the logic goes off the rails into an 'attack the president = attack ‘Merica’ argument, which is, in my opinion, totally in opposition to the founding principles of the country. The reason there is no US king is partly to avoid the lofty arrogance associated with George III\*. The president is a private citizen elected to run the country. He or she is not the incarnation of Uncle Sam. Since there continues to be available keyboard, the OP then sputters out into ‘My country: right or wrong or STFU’. (HA! George the 3rd. You were expecting something more Godwin-like, weren’t you) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/35 "2009-04-12T19:12:51Z")
It’s a terrible aspect of language that “opinion” can sometimes mean “belief.” There are two completely different uses of the word “opinion”: 1. I believe Bush is a terrible human, but that’s just my opinion. 2. I believe Bush lied us into a war, but that’s just my opinion. There’s no possible way to cite my first opinion, other than “my post is my cite.” It’s neither right nor wrong. It’s just my opinion. But my second opinion is based on objective truth. Either Bush did or did not lie about the evidence used to persuade Congress to authorize the Iraq War, and there’s plenty of evidence to support both sides of the debate. It is perfectly correct to demand a cite for my second opinion. I prefer to call the second one a belief, not an opinion, because it avoids muddying the waters. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/36 "2009-04-12T19:46:00Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > As I said, if you want to express an opinion about someone’s action, that is fine. Calling the President of The United States a “joke” is not. Wrong. There is no strange alchemy that turns an idiot into someone worthy of respect simply because he or she gets elected. Expressing one’s opinions of idiots is perfectly acceptable, even when those idiots get elected. ---
**Author:** ![bathsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@bathsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bathsheba)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/37 "2009-04-13T00:43:20Z")
A message from all the australian servicemen and women on active duty in Iraq and Afghanistan whom you just told to STF(O). Dubya Bushie Shrub Miserable Failure Chimp Inept Smirk Bushitler Fake War Hero Chickenhawk One Hitlerburton Crackhead Chimpowitz Rove’s Puppet Cowboy Hitlerstein Torturer AWOL McPsycho President Woke Up And The Dinosaur Was Still There Bushollini Cheney’s Sock Puppet President Junior-High Metalshop Chimpy McDrunkard President Passports are Optional Darth Moron Toxic Texan President Stifler Dim Son Drinky McCokeSpoon Emperor Chimpatine Fearful Leader Herr Bush Moron-in-Chief Satan’s Monkey President Accountability Moment Big Fat Liar Fatah Shoehead Hybrid Ape Cabbage Creature Monster Baby-killer Divider Shit for Brains Fear-mongerer Dumbo Neo-con World Leader Pretend Delusional Crusader Family Man Dick Terrorist Bore Deceiver Loser Mad Cowboy Smirker Deserter Draft-dodger Corporate Lackey Idiot Worst President Ever Number One Self-Proclaimed Self-Righteous Bigot Misguided Dangerous Death-making Self-serving Betrayer War-Mongerer Stupidest Man Alive Muck you right in the face, Varrius. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/38 "2009-04-13T00:45:44Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > I am sick of people like you making inane comments like this about the President of the United States! Good thing that he isn’t the president anymore then - see there was this thing called an election a while ago. Oh, and if free speech pisses you off this much, perhaps you should GTFO of my country and STFU. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/39 "2009-04-13T00:55:48Z")
**calm kiwi** is pretty cool. She and I agree on virtually nothing, but she, like **Zoe** , has both the ability and inclination not to hold peoples’ political viewpoints against them. This is one of the things that impressed me about **Diogenes** , as a matter of fact. He can go at you tooth and nail in one thread and then be perfectly civil and helpful to you in another just minutes later. I don’t agree with **calm kiwi’s** assessment of GWB but she is perfectly within her rights both as a person and as a member of this board to speak her mind however she likes as long as it’s within the rules of the board. Here’s to you, **calm kiwi**! Keep ‘em comin’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/40 "2009-04-13T01:14:54Z")
I see Varrius has only 32 posts, and may be unfamiliar with this board’s culture. So that is a reason to maybe cut Varrius some slack. But I’m really surprised that in Varrius’s entire adult life of defending this country, apparently no one has mentioned the 1st Amendment, which is part of our country and part of what Varrius has sworn to defend. Hvae you heard of this, Varrius? It’s about being free to say whatever you want, aside from a few limited things like death threats and shouting ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. It’s really quite pitiful you’ve been defending this country for so long and not really having much of a clue what it was you were defending. I would vote to give you a refund on your life if I could, 'cause you clearly didn’t understand what you were paying for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840.md?page=3)