# Pitting calm kiwi and others like him/her. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 12, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840 "2009-04-12T14:04:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/41 "2009-04-13T01:27:29Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > But I’m really surprised that in Varrius’s entire adult life of defending this country, apparently no one has mentioned the 1st Amendment, which is part of our country and part of what Varrius has sworn to defend. Hvae you heard of this, Varrius? It’s about being free to say whatever you want, aside from a few limited things like death threats and shouting ‘fire’ in a crowded theater. I’m inclined to believe that **Varrius** , unlike many people, knows that the first amendment just covers your right to not have your speech curtailed by the government, not people on message boards. This is why even though there’s a sticky at the top of this forum telling us what words are forbidden, the ACLU still has no interest going to bat for us. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/42 "2009-04-13T01:58:27Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Also, question: would you get huffy and defensive if an American told you that your Queen was a useless figurehead and waste of taxpayer money, and a bit of a ridiculous affectation to boot? Honestly, no, and I’m an ardent Monarchist (and an Imperialist, but that’s for a different thread). > [@](#): > > I certainly heard some guffawing about Michelle Obama’s “faux pas” of daring to touch Her Freakin’ Majesty, and how absurd the whole thing was. Wouldn’t some British subjects wish that the boorish, ignorant American just STFU about the Queen, since we don’t know what we’re talking about and have no right to an opinion? If someone from the US (or anywhere else) thinks the Queen is a useless figurehead/waste of space, they’re absolutely entitled to believe that and to say that, IMHO. I’m also entitled to disagree with them, and- this is very important- say the same sort of things about _their_ Head of State if I believe them. ---
**Author:** ![bathsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@bathsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bathsheba)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/43 "2009-04-13T06:21:08Z")
This is a queer cultural thing I’ve noticed. Insult the President of the US of A and a mercan will no doubtless challenge you, “How would you like it if I insulted your Head of State?”. I’m yet to find an Australian who would give a shit what you said about the Queen, or Uncle Kev for that matter. That’s because we call a spade a spade, or more appropriately, a wanker a wanker. Australians have due respect for people, not positions, and that’s a perfectly sensible approach to take. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/44 "2009-04-13T06:29:19Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > So saying that Nixon was a bad man for instigating Watergate or Kennedy really screwed the pooch when he approved the Bay of Pigs operation is totally verboten? What are you implying about Kennedy’s sexuality?! He NEVER had a go at Checkers, and for you– Uh, I mean, right. Yes. Of course, he really did screw up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/45 "2009-04-13T07:51:39Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > I love my country, and as a career military officer, have defended the USA every day for literally my entire adult life. So, because _you’ve_ been brainwashed into saying “Yes, Sah, Mr. CinC, Sah!” for, as you say, your “entire adult life”, the _rest of us_ have to shut the fuck up? How about…no? Not that I count the opinion of US military personnel very high in any case, even in such matters at the colour of the sky or … anything, really. But no, you don’t get to tell us who we get to have opinions on, or whether we can voice them. I know that’s how you’d\* like \*it to be, and that your military has, in fact, often devoted countless man-hours to ensuring us non-USers aren’t entitled to our own opinions (or even our own governments), but no, get bent, soldier boy. GI Joe, stay home. And STFU. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/46 "2009-04-13T10:55:24Z")
> [@Varrius](#): > > I am sick of people like you making inane comments like this about the President of the United States! > … > If you want to make a specific comment about **something he did** then by all means, bring some facts to support your point and flame on. I may agree or disagree with your opinion of the actions and we can have a civil discussion about it. But to out-and-out attack the person is reprehensible. Bush disgraced the office of the US President. His incoherent speeches, terrible economic policies (no regulation to prevent Enron or sub-prime mortgages), support for torture / imprisonment without trial and the unjustified invasion of Iraq (which wasted thousands of lives and billions of dollars) mean Bush is the one you should vent on. > [@Varrius](#): > > If don’t like the USA and you don’t live here - good, STFO. Let’s get this clear - the entire World detests Bush because his policies have caused deaths and financial ruin all over the place. He’s turned the US reputation from ‘Democracy, Freedom, Justice and Capitalism’ into ‘Lies, Waterboarding, Guantanamo Bay and banrupt banks’. The UK sent troops to support the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, because we were assured by Bush that Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs ready to use. He lied and our troops died alongside the Americans. Despite all that we still like Americans, especially Obama. Your assumption that deservedly calling Bush an incoherent torturing scumbag means we don’t like the US is faulty. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/47 "2009-04-13T11:53:21Z")
I’m a bit late sorry. > [@Varrius](#): > > I am sick of people like you making inane comments like this about the President of the United States! I am so sorry to be a “person like me” as it offends you so much. > [@Varrius](#): > > I am not defending any of his actions, nor am I condemning any. I am not saying that President Bush was a good/bad president. This rant is not about that. Actually I was not condemning any of his actions either (though I condemn many of them). The thread was about was about “Those who shall be forever mocked”. No matter what your feelings about George W Bush, he is someone who will always be mocked. > [@Varrius](#): > > If you want to make a specific comment about **something he did** then by all means, bring some facts to support your point and flame on. I may agree or disagree with your opinion of the actions and we can have a civil discussion about it. But to out-and-out attack the person is reprehensible. That thread was not a political one, it was about people who will always be mocked. Whether you or George like it or not, he will be mocked for a very long time. I’m not talking about his politics, just his sheer inability to deliver a coherent speech. > [@Varrius](#): > > I just wish I could go one day without hearing or reading something from the fucking “Bush-hating Bandwagon”, especially those who _ **don’t even live in this country** _ who resort to sophomoric name-calling. Maybe _oneday_ you will be able to go for a day without reading something you don’t like about him. I would love to have had one day in the last 8 years without reading ANYTHNG about him AND I don’t live in your country! > [@Varrius](#): > > Just for the record - I have the same emotion toward anybody, American or not, (e.g. comedians) who make personal attacks at the President ( **any** President, not just Bush). I think it is absolutely disrespectful of the position of the office, and I take all of these as a personal insult of this country. Well “just for the record” I have throughly enjoyed many of the comments American comedians have made about The Shrub. If you believe those American’s are disrespecting your country then take it up with them. As a citizen of a whole other country I feel free to disrespect both your government and mine…they are just politicians not god! Though at least I believe in politicians! > [@Varrius](#): > > You all have the right to dislike The United States of America, and in this country you have the right to say what you wish. I do not dislike the United States AT ALL (I just thought George was VERY bad for you) and I have the right to say what I wish in THIS country. > [@Varrius](#): > > If don’t like the USA and you don’t live here - good, STFO. What about if I have no anti US feelings and still don’t live there? Chill out dude 🙂 I really didn’t mean to offend anyone but G.W will be mocked for many years to come. **Starving Artist** Thank you 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/48 "2009-04-13T12:37:24Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I need a cite for my opinion? :dubious: Expect any respect for it? If not, then no. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/49 "2009-04-13T12:45:21Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Expect any respect for it? If not, then no. If I might be permitted a hijack here, I don’t think **Crafter\_Man** should have to provide a cite for his opinion. Opinions are formed in many ways, consciously and subconsciously, and I certainly don’t think it’s reasonable to say to someone “Sorry, unless you’ve had something published in a peer-reviewed journal you’re not allowed to think for yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/50 "2009-04-13T13:01:17Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > If I might be permitted a hijack here, I don’t think **Crafter\_Man** should have to provide a cite for his opinion. > > Opinions are formed in many ways, consciously and subconsciously, and I certainly don’t think it’s reasonable to say to someone “Sorry, unless you’ve had something published in a peer-reviewed journal you’re not allowed to think for yourself.” See, I think post 35 is a brilliant bit of wisdom. But everyone’s ignoring it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/51 "2009-04-13T13:03:20Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > See, I think post 35 is a brilliant bit of wisdom. But everyone’s ignoring it. ☹ I’m not ignoring it, I just don’t agree with you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/52 "2009-04-13T13:03:41Z")
> [@glee](#): > > The UK sent troops to support the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, because we were assured by Bush that Saddam had stockpiles of WMDs ready to use. He lied and our troops died alongside the Americans. Hold on a minute, there. If MI6 didn’t bother to independently confirm the existence of Saddam’s NBC stockpiles, that’s your own fault- or at least Blair’s. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/53 "2009-04-13T13:09:34Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’m not ignoring it, I just don’t agree with you. 😉 Okay, but on what basis? Do you disagree that there’s a distinction to be made between “Bush is a bad person” and “Bush lied us into a war”? Do you disagree that it’s appropriate to ask for cites for the latter but not for the former? Do you believe that if someone says something totally outrageous but attaches “In my opinion” to it (“In my opinion, left-handed people are the result of moms who sniffed glue all during pregnancy”), they can’t possibly be called on it? What he said wasn’t an opinion, it was a belief. An opinion is a straight-up value judgment (ice cream is good, Bush is bad, flowers are pretty, barf is gross). A belief says something about the world (ice cream is unhealthful, Bush is a liar, flower are plants, barf smells like stomach acids). Beliefs require evidence, whereas opinions don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/54 "2009-04-13T13:17:07Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > If I might be permitted a hijack here, I don’t think **Crafter\_Man** should have to provide a cite for his opinion. “I love cake” is purely a statement of opinion. “In my opinion, Steve is stealing cable,” is an assertion dressed up as an opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/55 "2009-04-13T13:19:07Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > **Calm Kiwi** is right. It’s going to take the US a long time to restore the damage Dubya has done to your international reputation. Furriners have been hating Americans long before Bush was president and will be for long afterwards. Some on this board have even equated the former USSR with the US. I’ve never understood this need to be liked. What you should strive for is to be feared. That way people leave you alone and give you shit. > [@42fish](#): > > Yeah, how dare those furriners act like our president has any effect on them! Nothing is forcing any country to play on the world stage. But if you want to play with the big boys then expect to get roughed up once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/56 "2009-04-13T13:21:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > What he said wasn’t an opinion, it was a belief. An opinion is a straight-up value judgment (ice cream is good, Bush is bad, flowers are pretty, barf is gross). A belief says something about the world (ice cream is unhealthful, Bush is a liar, flower are plants, barf smells like stomach acids). Beliefs require evidence, whereas opinions don’t. I have always wondered about the difference between opinion and belief and that was a pretty good explanation but how does that work in terms of religous beliefs (there is evidence?). Should it be religous opinions? What about my political beliefs/opinions. I’m a lefty from way back. I BELIEVE my OPINION is right. What came first the chicken or the egg? ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/57 "2009-04-13T13:32:43Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Furriners have been hating Americans long before Bush was president and will be for long afterwards. Some on this board have even equated the former USSR with the US. I’ve never understood this need to be liked. What you should strive for is to be feared. That way people leave you alone and give you shit.. Furriners? Foreigners are not some great homegenous group. Again, I do not dislike America, I just thought George was STUPID. Your attitude, however, is …hmmmm…Bush-ish. I’m sure you never have to be worried about being liked. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/58 "2009-04-13T13:34:08Z")
> [@calm\_kiwi](#): > > I have always wondered about the difference between opinion and belief and that was a pretty good explanation but how does that work in terms of religous beliefs (there is evidence?). Should it be religous opinions? Religious beliefs are interesting (understatement of the day). Many religious beliefs rely not on evidence but on faith, and they’re therefore a special class of beliefs. If someone says, “I have faith in an omnibenevolent God,” there’s really no way to argue with them, and doing so is IMO rude (notice that’s purely a value judgment; if I said “a breach of etiquette,” that’s a position I could cite with reference to Miss Manners or some such). Contrast that against the person who recently told me that she doesn’t believe for a second that a database is mathematically the most efficient and reliable way to store complex data: she seemed to hold this position based on faith, having no evidence to back it up, and it was utterly mad and maddening. Other religious beliefs ARE based on evidence–viz. the book I saw sold at a shop outside the Grand Canyon in which various yahoos showed how the Grand Canyon was evidence for young-earth creationism. Arguing with those religious beliefs is good sport. > [@](#): > > What about my political beliefs/opinions. I’m a lefty from way back. > I BELIEVE my OPINION is right. What came first the chicken or the egg? Is your political opinion of the “Bush is bad” variety, or of the “Bush is a liar” variety? If the former, I don’t see much percentage in arguing with you (even if I disagreed). If the latter, there have been some excellent threads in which people hashed out those issues. When you say you BELIEVE your OPINION is right, you suggest (through the use of the word “right”) that you believe your opinion is objectively the truth, which makes me think I’d classify it more as a political belief than as a political opinion: opinions have no truth value. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/59 "2009-04-13T13:34:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, but on what basis? Do you disagree that there’s a distinction to be made between “Bush is a bad person” and “Bush lied us into a war”? Not really. You can argue over the thrust of it till the cows come home and not achieve anything; depending on who you talk to- they’re both beliefs _and_ opinions. I personally find “Belief” and “Opinion” to be very closely related, FWIW. > [@](#): > > Do you disagree that it’s appropriate to ask for cites for the latter but not for the former? If someone says “In my opinion, Bush lied and led the US into an unjust war” then no, I don’t think it’s appropriate to ask for a cite. That’s how they feel, end of story. Same as “Bush is a bad person”. I can ask what they think Bush has lied about > [@](#): > > Do you believe that if someone says something totally outrageous but attaches “In my opinion” to it (“In my opinion, left-handed people are the result of moms who sniffed glue all during pregnancy”), they can’t possibly be called on it? Generally, yes. Lots of opinions and beliefs are formed by personal experience, and not necessarily backed up by empirical study. You’re entitled to think they’re being silly because of their opinion, but I don’t think you’re entitled to demand “CITE?” for the way someone feels. There’s a pretty good chance they don’t know themselves. > [@](#): > > What he said wasn’t an opinion, it was a belief. An opinion is a straight-up value judgment (ice cream is good, Bush is bad, flowers are pretty, barf is gross). A belief says something about the world (ice cream is unhealthful, Bush is a liar, flower are plants, barf smells like stomach acids). Beliefs require evidence, whereas opinions don’t. Lots of people believe things without any evidence to support them. Avoiding the obvious example, lots of people believe there’s something wrong with gay marriage. There’s no evidence to back that up, but if someone says that, in their opinion, gay marriage is wrong, then they’re entitled to that opinion, IMHO. I’m entitled to disagree with them, and I’m entitled to ask _why_ they have that opinion, but I’m not entitled to ask for a “cite” for their opinion. And yes, there is a difference between wanting to know why someone thinks something and demanding a cite for it. People arrive at beliefs and opinions in different ways. IMHO, beliefs tend to involve the _lack_ of evidence, whereas opinions tend to be formed from personal experience or assimilated knowledge, not (generally) specific points that can be readily identified and referenced in a bibliography. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840/60 "2009-04-13T13:35:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “I love cake” is purely a statement of opinion. “In my opinion, Steve is stealing cable,” is an assertion dressed up as an opinion. The problem is that opinions are 100% subjective and invulnerable to challenge. “I prefer swiss to cheddar”, “I like Bach more than Mozart.” There’s simply no discussion to be had. But “I think that Pete was Jack the Ripper” is a factual claim that you can be right, or wrong, about. Likewise, even “Bush was a bad man, in my opinion” is a claim that can be debated on its merits. We can define badness, debate which of his actions qualified, etc… Not so for the tastiness of cheddar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-calm-kiwi-and-others-like-him-her/492840.md?page=4)