# Pitting Dr. Hyde, Dr. Hyde, Dr. Hyde? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181 "2007-07-10T12:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/61 "2007-07-10T20:10:11Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] Even more šŸ˜•šŸ˜• [/QUOTE] I give up. Either I canā€™t explain it, or you donā€™t want to understand it. But I canā€™t think of any clearer way to express the issue than I already have. Maybe someone else would care to tryā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/62 "2007-07-10T20:11:11Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I donā€™t disagree. But I think that the proper reaction to that is to deal with the instances in which harm comes to the children rather than wrestling control from the hands of every parent everywhere. State control of education turns out bad quite often as well, but I donā€™t see you advocating taking it completely out of the hands of the State. [/QUOTE] [shrug] Thatā€™s because the state does it (that is, meets the goal of **universal** schooling) better than anyone else, as you will see if you look at any country without a public education system. The same applies to health care. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/63 "2007-07-10T20:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] All Iā€™m saying is you donā€™t need the government to take over healthcare in order to fix the current problem of non-portability. Thatā€™s a ā€œfeatureā€ of our tax code, and is not inherent in the concept of private health insurance. [/QUOTE] Do you know of any country that has managed to solve the portability problem in any other way? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/64 "2007-07-10T20:14:24Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] And I believe the price would go up under government-ran health care. [/quote] No evidence for that. > [@](#): > > Or quality would go down. (the ā€œSay anything, something will stickā€ mode) > [@](#): > > Maybe it was in the thread which produced this pit thread, but Iā€™ve already explained why I think Americans pay more for health care than other countries. By ignoring bankruptcies due to health care costs I still think you and many on the right are cooking the numbers. > [@](#): > > I donā€™t believe I ever said that rights arenā€™t violated in other countries, or even the United States. Nor did I say anything was unchangeable, although I must admit Iā€™m not really sure what your statement meant as I feel it was vague and lacking context. Again it is the bankruptcies due to health care costs, when citizens of other countries are not subjected to that, telling us that that is not a problem is indeed the ā€œdonā€™t pee on me and tell me it is raining!ā€ > [@](#): > > If weā€™re talking about my personal conception of the four essential rights that government/society should protect and hold _most valuable_ then no, that canā€™t change, unless I change my opinion. That is ok, it is not your deluded self Iā€™m replying for, but the others with rational minds, I have concluded that the 4 freedoms imply being free from irrational health care. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/65 "2007-07-10T20:16:40Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I give up. Either I canā€™t explain it, or you donā€™t want to understand it. But I canā€™t think of any clearer way to express the issue than I already have. Maybe someone else would care to tryā€¦ [/QUOTE] What is so hard to understand? A good chuck of people do not have employers or programs that can be applicable to them. The reason why there is so much trouble now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/66 "2007-07-10T20:19:14Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Do you know of any country that has managed to solve the portability problem in any other way? [/QUOTE] I donā€™t think any other country had the same system as the US. But \*\*GIGO \*\*was complaining that his brother didnā€™t really have ā€œlibertyā€ because he was tied to a job because it was the only one with the type of health insurance that he felt he needed. Why is it that we buy everything else we get with actual money, but we get our health insurance from our employers? **GIGO** ā€™s SiL should have had private health insurance to begin with, paid for with his/her own money just like they pay for car insurance, and then he could change jobs whenever he wanted without fear of losing his health insurance. Now, that might not make it any cheaper, but it would fix that specific problem that he was complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/67 "2007-07-10T20:20:19Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Very rich people in the US spend a lot of money on getting top specialists and elective surgery. That could easily account for the discrepency [/QUOTE] So why we donā€™t see the rich people in Europe ever changing that discrepancy? I think it would be because rich people there like to use the system too, cheapskates! šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/68 "2007-07-10T20:28:36Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I donā€™t think any other country had the same system as the US. But \*\*GIGO \*\*was complaining that his brother didnā€™t really have ā€œlibertyā€ because he was tied to a job because it was the only one with the type of health insurance that he felt he needed. Why is it that we buy everything else we get with actual money, but we get our health insurance from our employers? **GIGO** ā€™s SiL should have had private health insurance to begin with, paid for with his/her own money just like they pay for car insurance, and then he could change jobs whenever he wanted without fear of losing his health insurance. Now, that might not make it any cheaper, but it would fix that specific problem that he was complaining about. [/QUOTE] And it would be ok, if that had been a system used in many other developed nations, however even in more capitalist nations, like in Singapore, patients do finance at least a portion of the costs of their care, but not all. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/69 "2007-07-10T20:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] So why we donā€™t see the rich people in Europe ever changing that discrepancy? I think it would be because rich people there like to use the system too, cheapskates! šŸ™‚ [/QUOTE] Well, we do see Canadians jumping over to the US to circumvent long lines for specialists. I donā€™t pretend to understand European healthcare systems, but itā€™s plausible that the existence of a cheaper alternative discourages rich people from paying top dollar for a private specialist. Certainly, the specialist deficit would leave fewer physicians performing elective surgery, accounting for a big chunk of that discrepancy. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/70 "2007-07-10T20:33:10Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] No evidence for that. (the ā€œSay anything, something will stickā€ mode) By ignoring bankruptcies due to health care costs I still think you and many on the right are cooking the numbers. Again it is the bankruptcies due to health care costs, when citizens of other countries are not subjected to that, telling us that that is not a problem is indeed the ā€œdonā€™t pee on me and tell me it is raining!ā€ That is ok, it is not your deluded self Iā€™m replying for, but the others with rational minds, I have concluded that the 4 freedoms imply being free from irrational health care. [/QUOTE] Do you have a cite for the bankruptcy arguement? The one time I have seen this they simply tacked on ANY healthcare costs waived due to bankruptcy and concluded that HC costs CAUSED it. However, when you file for bankruptcy you put EVERYTHING on there. Is there a cite that shows that HC costs represent the majority of the debt waived in a bankruptcy case? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/71 "2007-07-10T20:43:01Z")
[QUOTE=athelas] Well, we do see Canadians jumping over to the US to circumvent long lines for specialists. I donā€™t pretend to understand European healthcare systems, but itā€™s plausible that the existence of a cheaper alternative discourages rich people from paying top dollar for a private specialist. Certainly, the specialist deficit would leave fewer physicians performing elective surgery, accounting for a big chunk of that discrepancy. [/QUOTE] OTOH I see many Americans getting health care or medicine in other countries. My parents, that have to take medications, decided to move back to the old country (even with all the violence going on) because they encountered the ā€œdoughnut holeā€ to be too expensive. > **[Medicare's 'Doughnut Hole'](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/medicares-doughnut-hole/?index=1)** > > Millions Of Seniors Are Hitting A Gap Where They Pay All Drug Costs ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/72 "2007-07-10T20:49:37Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] If weā€™re talking about my personal conception of the four essential rights that government/society should protect and hold _most valuable_ then no, that canā€™t change, unless I change my opinion. [/QUOTE] Fine. Just donā€™t presume to call it [ā€œcommon sense.ā€](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8732165&highlight=common#post8732165) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/73 "2007-07-10T21:09:20Z")
[QUOTE=Algher] Do you have a cite for the bankruptcy arguement? The one time I have seen this they simply tacked on ANY healthcare costs waived due to bankruptcy and concluded that HC costs CAUSED it. However, when you file for bankruptcy you put EVERYTHING on there. Is there a cite that shows that HC costs represent the majority of the debt waived in a bankruptcy case? [/QUOTE] Well, my main point is that even if few families had to file for bankruptcy or have problems due to health care costs, the problem is a shameful one to have in a developed nation. [http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04219/357527.stm](http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04219/357527.stm) > [@](#): > > But the amount of medical debt in personal bankruptcy cases was substantial in 1999, said Melissa Jacoby, a law professor at the University of North Carolina who studies the issue. And thereā€™s reason to think the situation hasnā€™t improved since then, as costs have climbed and the number of people lacking health insurance has grown. > > Jacoby and colleagues published a study of bankruptcy filings that estimated more than 500,000 middle class families turned to the bankruptcy courts for help following an illness or injury in 1999, alone. A separate study published this summer reported that nearly 20 million American families during 2003 had trouble paying medical bills, with nearly two-thirds of those families saying the medical bills made it difficult to pay for other basic necessities. > > ā€œI think the effects of our health care system on bankruptcy have become larger than anyone would have imagined,ā€ Jacoby said. [http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/short/hlthaff.w5.63](http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/short/hlthaff.w5.63) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/74 "2007-07-10T21:28:21Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I donā€™t see it as anything else other than a simple difference of opinion on how we define basic humanitarian service. I think the basics are: food, water, and shelter. [/QUOTE] Hey, youā€™re already way ahead of one poster here (whom I donā€™t remember seeing for a while); he didnā€™t think that people had a right to [food.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=175997) And careful, all; this could turn into a GD, what with all this reasoned arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/75 "2007-07-10T22:03:49Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] No evidence for that. [/quote] Sure there is, government is famously inefficient. Thereā€™s no real strong evidence that universal health care is going to decrease costs. > [@](#): > > (the ā€œSay anything, something will stickā€ mode) Lol. You = dumb. > [@](#): > > By ignoring bankruptcies due to health care costs I still think you and many on the right are cooking the numbers. Thereā€™s no ā€œcooking the numbersā€ because I wasnā€™t talking about the numbers. If you want to argue that bankruptcies due to health care represent a significant societal cost, fine, do so. That isnā€™t something Iā€™ve argued about one way or another. My only point was, that going bankrupt isnā€™t a violation of property rights, period. That was the only point I was making and you trying to associate other points with it makes you very dishonest. > [@](#): > > Again it is the bankruptcies due to health care costs, when citizens of other countries are not subjected to that, telling us that that is not a problem is indeed the ā€œdonā€™t pee on me and tell me it is raining!ā€ I never said it wasnā€™t a problem, Iā€™m beginning to worry that you may have reading comprehension problems, youā€™re attacking points Iā€™ve not only never made, Iā€™ve never approached making. Thereā€™s a difference between me accepting that something is a problem and me thinking it is governmentā€™s job to fix it. > [@](#): > > That is ok, it is not your deluded self Iā€™m replying for, but the others with rational minds, I have concluded that the 4 freedoms imply being free from irrational health care. Then perhaps you should stop actually quoting my posts and then making counterpoints to arguments Iā€™ve never made. If you donā€™t want to reply to my ā€œdeluded selfā€ then donā€™t, you know, reply to me in the form of direct quotations, because thatā€™s you know, replying to me. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/76 "2007-07-10T22:05:33Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] So why we donā€™t see the rich people in Europe ever changing that discrepancy? I think it would be because rich people there like to use the system too, cheapskates! šŸ™‚ [/QUOTE] Actually throughout Europe rich people go often spend millions on private health treatment, some even come to the United States for treatment. There are private health care providers in many countries with single-payer systems. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/77 "2007-07-10T22:06:49Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Fine. Just donā€™t presume to call it [ā€œcommon sense.ā€](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8732165&highlight=common#post8732165) :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] I tend to think my opinion aligns with what is common sense in this particular case. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/78 "2007-07-10T22:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] Hey, youā€™re already way ahead of one poster here (whom I donā€™t remember seeing for a while); he didnā€™t think that people had a right to [food.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=175997) And careful, all; this could turn into a GD, what with all this reasoned arguing. [/QUOTE] Note that word ā€œrightā€, again. I never said food, water, and shelter are _rights_ I said they are **basic** humanitarian needs. Do I think government should provide for basic humanitarian needs? In general, yes, with some reservations. Again, thereā€™s a big difference in what I think government should provide and what I think I have an inalienable ā€œrightā€ to have. I donā€™t think I have a right to ANYTHING, I do believe I have rights to be free of certain things (like political oppression, arbitrary property seizure, arbitrary denial of liberty and et cetera.) I think governments should provide driverā€™s licenses, that doesnā€™t mean I think a right to a driverā€™s license is a fundamental right (note there is a difference between ā€œfundamentalā€ or ā€œnaturalā€ rights whatever you want to call them, in that people can disagree about what is and is not a natural/fundamental right, however legal/constitutionally provided rights are a different matter on which there can be some factual assertion as to what rights exist.) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/79 "2007-07-10T22:15:13Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Lol. You = dumb. [/QUOTE] Common sense, yep. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/80 "2007-07-10T23:48:48Z")
All discussion about the value of universal healthcare aside, this Pitting is a blatant attempt to take one post out of context and twist it to mean something it clearly did not mean in the original thread. If we take the OP at his/her word, Martin is saying that no one, not even someone who can afford to pay for it, should get more medical care than, for example, to stop the bleeding. He implies in his second paragraph that were MH a doctor, heā€™d refuse to treat patients unless they were dying. Now, letā€™s imagine that the OP didnā€™t distort the meaning what \*\*MH \*\*posted, and that heā€™s Pitting him for what he meant to say with that postā€¦ Going back to the thread in question (thanks to \*\*Trunk \*\*for providing the link), itā€™s clear that \*\*Martin \*\*is talking about whether a person should be able to demand treatment of a certain level from the government. Now, you may disagree with that as a political position, but itā€™s a perfectly valid position to hold. I hope we havenā€™t descended to the point on this MB where a person gets Pitted for his particular political beliefs. Afterall, weā€™re all going to disagree at some point where we draw the line between critical care that the government should provide and optional care that the patient would have to pay for himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181.md?page=5)