# Pitting Dr. Hyde, Dr. Hyde, Dr. Hyde? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181 "2007-07-10T12:27:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/141 "2007-07-16T18:34:37Z")
[QUOTE=Fuji] Is that all you’ve got? How about responding to any of my other points? [/QUOTE] I responded to that post in its entirety, from what I’ve seen you’ve made one other post after that which warrants a response from me, and I have not yet gotten to replying to it, do be patient as I reply to all posts which are worthy in due course. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/142 "2007-07-16T19:31:13Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] So now everyone is entitled to a good job? People are SLAVES if they work in jobs they don’t like (even though they are getting benefits and paid for it, nonetheless!?!) Where does it stop with you people? Why stop with us making sure everyone has a job they like and really enjoy, why not just give everyone a $70,000/year stipend and tell them to go off and enjoy life to their heart’s content, that way even people who don’t want to work at all would be able to get by just fine! [/QUOTE] That was not the point you roasted one that forgets what this thread is about, even in Europe no one is getting that by being free of not depending on a job for specific care. But try again to get your silly points, it is a better way to show everyone else what ideology is preventing Americans from being free of losing their property if they get unlucky and get sick, for even this late you ignore that even if only 100 families (that guy that fell down likely will have all his family members affected in their economical wellbeing too) go bankrupt in the USA because of health care costs, it would be enough to declare one system better than the other in the matter of giving people the freedom to keep their property and have a good future for their sons and daughters. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/143 "2007-07-16T19:43:47Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] That was not the point you roasted one that forgets what this thread is about, even in Europe no one is getting that by being free of not depending on a job for specific care. But try again to get your silly points, it is a better way to show everyone else what ideology is preventing Americans from being free of losing their property if they get unlucky and get sick, for even this late you ignore that even if only 100 families (that guy that fell down likely will have all his family members affected in their economical wellbeing too) go bankrupt in the USA because of health care costs, it would be enough to declare one system better than the other in the matter of giving people the freedom to keep their property and have a good future for their sons and daughters. [/QUOTE] I was responding to a specific post that **EC** made, namely his talking about the “terrible plight” of someone working in a job they didn’t like, and equating it to slavery. Or are you incapable of following a conversation? I wasn’t making any sort of claims in regard to anything in general, but rather to the specific point raised by EC. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/144 "2007-07-16T19:49:46Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I was responding to a specific post that **EC** made, namely his talking about the “terrible plight” of someone working in a job they didn’t like, and equating it to slavery. Or are you incapable of following a conversation? I wasn’t making any sort of claims in regard to anything in general, but rather to the specific point raised by EC. [/QUOTE] It is you who is not able to follow, My brother’s family was the one in that “terrible plight”, but thanks on putting more salt in the wound. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/145 "2007-07-16T20:01:39Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] It is you who is not able to follow, My brother’s family was the one in that “terrible plight”, but thanks on putting more salt in the wound. [/QUOTE] Then that makes it doubly embarrassing for you that you were unable to follow this very simple discussion. I never said that people in Europe are getting a free ride. Only that EC was being ridiculous in claiming that someone was a slave because they were in a job they didn’t like. If we’re going to start making irrelevant references to Europe, it may be worth noting that even in Europe people have to work jobs they don’t like sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/146 "2007-07-16T20:06:20Z")
[QUOTE=Fuji] Now, on some level, I do in fact agree with you that, in my father’s case, the Republic of Ireland probably\* lost money by deciding to fund my father’s healthcare expenses for the last 8 months of his life. However, I think that you are severely underestimating the benefits that redound to _the individual_ from _societal_ investments. Some of these are quite intangible and hard to quantify, but are nevertheless quite real and significant. [/quote] I don’t believe that societal investments never have benefits. I simply believe the benefits of universal health care are outweighed by their costs. As you said yourself, it is hard to quantify and intangible, so maybe I _am_ wrong. However everything I’ve seen leads me to decide universal health care is a losing proposition for America. > [@](#): > > With the case of “free” elderly healthcare (as commonly, but not universally, understood), even if you never have to make any use of state resources, you still benefit from living in such a society because you do not have to live in fear and anxiety of having to personally shoulder the prohibitive cost of such care. That “peace of mind” is a definite and real benefit, as I’m sure you can imagine, even if you philosophically are opposed to its funding. (It could even be argued that by not having to plan for such outlays, that the individual will be able to actively utilize a larger proportion of their personal capital, as opposed to keeping it in reserve in static or relatively non-productive assets. This would have tangible and quantifiable benefits for society as a whole, though I’ll leave the detailed mathematical analysis to someone else). A properly functioning market is about choice. If people choose to bankrupt themselves trying to give someone an extra year of life, that is their choice. No, it isn’t good for individuals when this happens, in a perfect system we would be mature enough to realize “nothing can be done” and just try to make them comfortable. If I go to cancer or something, I really hope no one in my family wants to go $100,000 in debt trying to save me from the jaws of death when it is an impossible proposition. > [@](#): > > A more fundamental problem that I have with your line of reasoning is that you presume to have accurate foreknowledge of an individual’s net benefit or cost to society as a whole. In my father’s case, what if he had invented a new, superstrong, lightweight epoxy at the age of 78? Would this not then significantly affect your calculus of his societal worth? (And please don’t tell me that this is a ludicrous example, as my father was indeed a plastics engineer for approximately 30 years.) You just can’t tell who is going to end up a net “plus” or “minus” ahead of time (except in the most extreme cases). I don’t presume such a thing, I even allowed the possibility of an old person contributing further to society–although I also imagined the possibility that many such people would, if they are truly valuable to society, be getting support from others. We have to hedge our bets, though, and smart money says a 75 year old isn’t going to be developing a new epoxy. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/147 "2007-07-16T20:08:17Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Then that makes it doubly embarrassing for you that you were unable to follow this very simple discussion. I never said that people in Europe are getting a free ride. Only that EC was being ridiculous in claiming that someone was a slave because they were in a job they didn’t like. If we’re going to start making irrelevant references to Europe, it may be worth noting that even in Europe people have to work jobs they don’t like sometimes. [/QUOTE] They have a duty to family too, it is not for health care though that they keep those positions. And it is relevant, your efforts to minimize that freedom and property are more at risk in the current American system are the reason why you are only like the guy that is still insisting “that is rain” and not the tricking down pee of the ones that want to keep it that way. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/148 "2007-07-16T20:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] They have a duty to family too, it is not for health care though that they keep those positions. And it is relevant, your efforts to minimize that freedom and property are more at risk in the current American system are the reason why you are only like the guy that is still insisting “that is rain” and not the tricking down pee of the ones that want to keep it that way. [/QUOTE] If I was the only one in the world who felt the way I do, we’d have universal health care in the United States, FYI. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/149 "2007-07-16T20:17:51Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Then that makes it doubly embarrassing for you that you were unable to follow this very simple discussion. I never said that people in Europe are getting a free ride. Only that EC was being ridiculous in claiming that someone was a slave because they were in a job they didn’t like. [/QUOTE] And I forgot to add: It is really embarrassing to you in context, but even if you do make the point that it was not slavery, it was the next worst thing. Funny thing that that family member was also like you, hard to keep that tune when encountering more than just an anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/150 "2007-07-16T20:32:08Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] If I was the only one in the world who felt the way I do, we’d have universal health care in the United States, FYI. [/QUOTE] Of course not, that was implied in the reply, do keep up. There are wealthy guys that will crank up the propaganda even more and to make more people like you to parrot why “we are unique and better”. There is not only “rain” in the forecast, but bullshit as well. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/151 "2007-07-16T22:59:30Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] And I forgot to add: It is really embarrassing to you in context, but even if you do make the point that it was not slavery, it was the next worst thing. Funny thing that that family member was also like you, hard to keep that tune when encountering more than just an anecdote. [/QUOTE] Um no, first, I point out absurd **EC** ’s claim that “bad job = slavery” is. And no, it really isn’t “the next worst thing” to slavery. It’s not even remotely comparable. Slavery means you’re a _fucking slave_, if you try to quit working, you get beaten or even killed. In fact, to recap: > [@Evil Captor](#): > > And the person cited earlier whose spouse has to work at a job they hate because of the employment benefits. Once again, no skin off Martin Hyde or Liberal’s nose, so the system is WORKING! Working, if not for the good of all, at least for them! And in this case there’s a double benefit because some evil corporate bastard has a SLAVE now! Could life possibly be better? > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > So now everyone is entitled to a good job? People are SLAVES if they work in jobs they don’t like (even though they are getting benefits and paid for it, nonetheless!?!) Where does it stop with you people? Why stop with us making sure everyone has a job they like and really enjoy, why not just give everyone a $70,000/year stipend and tell them to go off and enjoy life to their heart’s content, that way even people who don’t want to work at all would be able to get by just fine! > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was not the point you roasted one that forgets what this thread is about, even in Europe no one is getting that by being free of not depending on a job for specific care. > > But try again to get your silly points, it is a better way to show everyone else what ideology is preventing Americans from being free of losing their property if they get unlucky and get sick, for even this late you ignore that even if only 100 families (that guy that fell down likely will have all his family members affected in their economical wellbeing too) go bankrupt in the USA because of health care costs, it would be enough to declare one system better than the other in the matter of giving people the freedom to keep their property and have a good future for their sons and daughters. It’s this third post in the exchange, yours, that goes off on a wild, barely intelligible tangent that had little to nothing to do with what I was saying to **EC**. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2007, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/152 "2007-07-17T02:54:42Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I think most people (in society at large, not the SDMB) would probably reply in the negative if asked this question, “Do you think your taxes should be raised in order to cover a $72,000 procedure to reattach two of a man’s finger tips that he lost in an accident at his home?” :dubious: You think they would? Tell me, **Martin** , does your own health insurance plan (which you’ve previously described to us as “great”) cover things like the surgical reattachment of severed fingertips? If, say, you had a young daughter who lost two fingertips in an accident, would you be content with telling her that it would be wasteful and frivolous for the insurance company to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to reattach them, and she should look on the bright side and think of all the 20% discounts she can get on manicures at nail salons from now on? Because AFAIK, most good insurance plans definitely do cover reparative surgery such as fingertip reattachment. Why would they bother doing so, if most of their subscribers agreed with you that it was so wasteful, frivolous, and socially useless? Why isn’t it their responsibility to their subscribers to keep costs down by refusing to pay for such “unnecessary” operations? Most health-care plan participants are apparently quite happy to pay the premiums necessary to cover things like occasional fingertip reattachment. Yet you’re trying to argue that most universal-health-care plan participants wouldn’t be willing to pay the taxes necessary to cover things like occasional fingertip reattachment. I don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2007, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/153 "2007-07-17T07:43:25Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] It’s this third post in the exchange, yours, that goes off on a wild, barely intelligible tangent that had little to nothing to do with what I was saying to **EC**. [/QUOTE] So? This is a roast, and you are the “patient”, that you forgot that I said that I was not going to reply to your deluded self, but to reply to bust your egocentrism and to influence others somehow was missed by your pedantic mode here. This guy is pathetic, better to become pedantic than deal with what was said, when I said like a slave I see it as being symbolic. And I said it was more like the next thing: Like returning to a Feudalism and my brother and others like him not so free. And still symbolic. Protesting that we are going on a tangent is beyond silly, a pit does not belong to the one being roasted. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2007, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/154 "2007-07-17T07:51:22Z")
And here is what it was ignored: even if only 100 families go bankrupt in the USA because of health care costs, it would be enough to an independent mind to declare other systems better than the one in the USA in the matter of giving people the freedom to keep their property and have a good future for their sons and daughters. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/155 "2007-07-20T03:17:36Z")
[QUOTE=GIGObuster] And here is what it was ignored: even if only 100 families go bankrupt in the USA because of health care costs, it would be enough to an independent mind to declare other systems better than the one in the USA in the matter of giving people the freedom to keep their property and have a good future for their sons and daughters. [/QUOTE] Do you really believe that even in systems with universal health care, no one has ever gone bankrupt due to health care costs? Universal health care has a limit. If I have pancreatic cancer, even in the UK where the NHS provides health care I don’t think I’d receive “EVERY POSSIBLE FORM OF TREATMENT” if there were some theoretical treatment that MIGHT save my life, I do not believe (from my understanding of how the NHS works) that the NHS would shell out $1m for said unproven, theoretical procedure ([cite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4420584.stm)). However many individuals might decide such a procedure is worth _trying_ if they are on death’s door anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/156 "2007-07-20T03:23:25Z")
[QUOTE=Kimstu] :dubious: You think they would? Tell me, **Martin** , does your own health insurance plan (which you’ve previously described to us as “great”) cover things like the surgical reattachment of severed fingertips? If, say, you had a young daughter who lost two fingertips in an accident, would you be content with telling her that it would be wasteful and frivolous for the insurance company to shell out tens of thousands of dollars to reattach them, and she should look on the bright side and think of all the 20% discounts she can get on manicures at nail salons from now on? Because AFAIK, most good insurance plans definitely do cover reparative surgery such as fingertip reattachment. Why would they bother doing so, if most of their subscribers agreed with you that it was so wasteful, frivolous, and socially useless? Why isn’t it their responsibility to their subscribers to keep costs down by refusing to pay for such “unnecessary” operations? Most health-care plan participants are apparently quite happy to pay the premiums necessary to cover things like occasional fingertip reattachment. Yet you’re trying to argue that most universal-health-care plan participants wouldn’t be willing to pay the taxes necessary to cover things like occasional fingertip reattachment. I don’t buy it. [/QUOTE] You failed to address my second question, which was this: > [@Martin Hyde](#): > > “Your next door neighbor fell off a ladder cleaning his gutters and is now paralyzed from the waist down. Should you have to pay his medical bills?” In any case, as to your above statements, you need to realize why insurance exists. It exists to distribute risk. People agree with insurance plans paying out coverage to reattach fingers, because everyone in the insurance plan has willingly and voluntarily entered into said plan and is paying premium every month in order to distribute risk. Note that the better the coverage, the higher the cost of the plan. If someone did not believe that they needed help with their risks for cases of minor injury, they would opt for a plan with less coverage. Or with a larger deductible or et cetera. In the case of universal health care, it is akin to someone coming to your house and taking money out of your pocket for someone else’s medical care, even if they aren’t paying into the system like you are. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/157 "2007-07-20T06:01:02Z")
**Liberal** , you do realize that you and I and others, including the 69 year old, are already paying for health care by paying higher prices for goods and services, don’t you? The extra money goes to pay for health insurance policies. Personally, I wouldn’t want to deprive hospital workers of any level of a chance to be merciful. I can’t think of a better use of our taxes than to end suffering. **Little Plastic Ninja** and anyone else who has ever passed even just one kidney stone knows what suffering is. It can change the way you care about rules and regulations and how they affect other people. BTW, **Liberal** , I have an idea about education. Raise the standards for teachers and put _them_ in charge of their classrooms. They haven’t been in the last thirty years. It just looks that way since that’s who you see out front. **Martin** , your posts are rambling nonsense that pretends there is a meaningful difference between “a right” and “rights.” It doesn’t make a damned bit of difference that you have “3. the right to life” if you die from lack of medical attention that you don’t have the right to and that doesn’t appear on your basic needs list. Sometimes there are _other_ basic needs: blood transfusions, CPR, tests, oxygen, surgery. I had always heard about those long lines in countries where there is socialized medicine too. In my experience they didn’t materialize. I was slightly injured in a minor accident in Paris (a very expensive city) and an ambulance was summoned. I was taken to a hospital. I waited no longer than five minutes or so before I saw a doctor who gave me a very careful examination. I was very satisfied with her professionalism. She gave me a tetanus shot and I went back to the hotel and was fine. Back in the States I received the bill. The ambulance, ER, shot and doctor bill total came to $20 Euros – at that time the equivalent of about $30 dollars. (Actually, the ambulance was a free service.) In the United States I would have had to wait two or three hours and my bills would probably have totaled close to $150 or $200 without an ambulance. The ambulance would have doubled that. In Denmark they are very proud of their health care system. It seems so strange that no one has to have insurance. I really don’t hear much complaining from countries that have universal health care systems. The complaints I hear are from the United States. > [@](#): > > **John Mace** : If your morality requires you to provide medical care for everyone, then no one is stopping you. If most people in this country feel the same way, then what’s the problem? Why isn’t it just happening by itself. Well, the answer must be that many people don’t really believe that. My guess is that those people are hoping to get something for themselves out of it. Do you really believe that people can’t just feel compassion for someone else’s suffering and want to end it? Is that the way it is for you? Are you always working an angle? Is that why you believe that other people are? I’m not accusing. I’m just asking because I don’t understand why you would say something like that. **Martin** , be careful where you draw those lines. You may exclude older people, but I might exclude people who lack integrity. Someone else might exclude idiots or conservatives. > [@](#): > > **Martin** : Finger tips aren’t actually all that important. People who are blind, surgeons, musicians, lovers – try telling that to them. I would not take ten million for mine for the remainder of my ancient life. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/158 "2007-07-20T06:34:21Z")
I wrote down a few countries that I know have socialized health care and checked their infant mortality rates and life expectancy rates against ours in the States. Infant Mortality, Life Expectancy UK – 5.0, 78.7 Canada – 4.6, 80.3 France – 4.2, 79.9 Denmark – 4.5, 78.0 Sweden – 2.8, 80.6 USA – 6.4, 78.0 Our infant mortality rate is higher than that of South Korea. If you want to live longer than you are likely to in the States, go to Israel! [Source](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/159 "2007-07-20T06:40:25Z")
Does it still work if you come right back? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181/160 "2007-07-20T09:01:36Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Do you really believe that even in systems with universal health care, no one has ever gone bankrupt due to health care costs? [/quote] I do not believe that you simpleton, the point still stands: there is plenty of evidence (both anecdotal and statistical) that many families do go to bankruptcy in this current system of ours. And that means loss of property in many cases. Unless you can point to data saying that more families face bankruptcy for health care costs in other industrialized nations you are just blowing smoke. > [@](#): > > Universal health care has a limit. If I have pancreatic cancer, even in the UK where the NHS provides health care I don’t think I’d receive “EVERY POSSIBLE FORM OF TREATMENT” if there were some theoretical treatment that MIGHT save my life, I do not believe (from my understanding of how the NHS works) that the NHS would shell out $1m for said unproven, theoretical procedure ([cite](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4420584.stm)). However many individuals might decide such a procedure is worth _trying_ if they are on death’s door anyway. There was a guy being roasted that posted this early: [QUOTE=Martin Hyde] A properly functioning market is about choice. If people choose to bankrupt themselves trying to give someone an extra year of life, that is their choice. No, it isn’t good for individuals when this happens, in a perfect system we would be mature enough to realize “nothing can be done” and just try to make them comfortable. If I go to cancer or something, I really hope no one in my family wants to go $100,000 in debt trying to save me from the jaws of death when it is an impossible proposition. [/QUOTE] And looking at the cite: “the trust has backtracked [The original decision to deny the costly treatment]” As it needs to be said again in most UH discussions: There is no talk of becoming like the USA, only calls to reform (in this case more to just tweak) the systems appear. What is clear is that families in England still have the choice of going bankrupt if they want in an effort to save a family member. The point here is that Universal Health care there gets close to the system that realizes “nothing can be done”. In the USA the “nothing can be done” is avoided for as long as some middleman can extract the wallet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-dr-hyde-dr-hyde-dr-hyde/411181.md?page=9)