# Pitting either a)careless or b)intentionally ambigous or c)outright inflammatory email **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 13, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847 "2010-01-13T22:45:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/61 "2010-01-15T00:50:39Z")
First of all, the link is NOT 'the ethics of self-defense" or even “the ethics of defensive firepower”. The title is “The Ethics of Firepower” – you are the one who introduced self-defense as a justification for the use of firearms. And I wouldn’t dispute that at all. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/62 "2010-01-15T01:11:23Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Well I’m outraged that they’d start with rapid! I bet they even hold their pistols sideways when they do it! [You need a set of these](http://s686.photobucket.com/albums/vv225/macDBH/?action=view¤t=gangstasights.jpg&sort=ascending) if you want to do that with any accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/63 "2010-01-15T03:01:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Again, tell that to - let’s say - the armies who liberated the concentration camps, just to use one example. The armies’ possessions of guns changed the ethics of the situation…how? > [@](#): > > Or a police officer who has to shoot someone on a shooting spree…or someone who has to shoot an attacker in self-defense How does the presence of a gun affect the _ethics?_. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/64 "2010-01-15T03:04:22Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Okay, but the fact remains that a gun is currently the most effective means of self-defense available to people. Therefore, the ethics of self-defense involve firearms. _ **Ethics from the Barrel of a Gun** _. Not, ‘we have guns. Let’s think about how to use them ethically.’ Nope. ‘We have the guns - therefore we dictate the _ethics_.’ **Boyo** ’s contention that the title is oxymoronic stands. ---
**Author:** ![dpsychs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@dpsychs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dpsychs)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/65 "2010-01-15T04:25:29Z")
This seems a rather odd discussion, in some ways. Isn’t it obvious that the presence of power confers an increased obligation to carefully consider ethics? To the extent that ‘power’ confers an increased range of choices, it also confers an obligation to consider the outcome of those choices to ensure justice. Remember the phrase “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely?” The point is that if you have the power to do something, you then must consider whether you _should_ do that thing or not. If I have the power to _stop_ someone from robbing, raping, or killing me, by unleashing lethal force (e.g., perhaps with a firearm) then I have an additional obligation to consider whether I should. If I do not have that power, then any such consideration is purely academic. My ethics say that it is acceptable to unleash lethal force to prevent raping or killing, but not robbing. The law - at least in most states - agrees with that assessment. And for the record, I’m not so sure that Martin Luther would have disagreed. No oxymorons here… ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/66 "2010-01-15T17:19:15Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, I guess **Argent** was right. But…but…post #4! I really meant to check back into this thread earlier, but I’ll just say it now: Nyah nyah! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/67 "2010-01-15T17:29:54Z")
Well, I misspoke anyway - **Argent** was sort of right, in that there was apparently no malicious intent. You were completely right, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/68 "2010-01-15T17:39:50Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I suspect there was a “plant” inside the Pink Pistols by some anti-gun group to do this and make them look bad. The Pink Pistols is a very progressive group and aside from the 2nd amendment tends to be liberal-leaning socially. I could imagine a lot of people doing this, but not them. Well, if I were a Republican and I’d want to divide and conquer, I’d choose gays and blacks. Blacks are already over-represented in their opposition to gay marriage. {Didn’t see Nicki’s post} ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/69 "2010-01-15T19:05:34Z")
Follow-up to the original: Mr. Salem has apologized to the Pink Pistols group via email for his poor judgment (apparently either it was his choice or he is falling on his sword for someone lower down), and a very (very) long apology from someone higher up in the organization. There was a lot of internal kerfuffle, most of it after Mr. Salem had already withdrawn the idea of shooting at MLK photos. I suspect that a lot of these people had not read the original email with any attention to detail. So, yes, choice a) careless (or poor judgment) rather than malice of any kind seems to be the consensus among all concerned. I am glad, as a new member, that this was the outcome. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/70 "2010-01-15T19:46:37Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > You know, when somebody is going to go to the trouble to make amends the way she did in her post, that’s just churlish. In the Pit, someone posted in the Pit in an attempt to head off further public fallout from what was, at best, an incredibly poor decision on the part of someone within their organization, after it was reported in the Pit. Pardon me if I, in the Pit, don’t go out of my way to avoid mocking their post structure. In the Pit. Did I mention that we’re in the Pit, you whiny sissy? > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It cOuLd Be WoRsE. ur rite lol!!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/71 "2010-01-16T01:10:14Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > In the Pit, someone posted in the Pit in an attempt to head off further public fallout from what was, at best, an incredibly poor decision on the part of someone within their organization, after it was reported in the Pit. Pardon me if I, in the Pit, don’t go out of my way to avoid mocking their post structure. In the Pit. Did I mention that we’re in the Pit, you whiny sissy? They were an outsider, though. It’s considered bad form to jump on their backs and slit their throat until _after_ you’ve lured them to a false sense of security. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/72 "2010-01-16T19:32:31Z")
I’d re-think my membership. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/73 "2010-01-16T19:54:11Z")
That place is enough to give gun owners a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/74 "2010-01-17T07:41:11Z")
> [@nicki1259](#): > > To whom it may concern, > > I saw this posting for my event and went WTF, I talked with Raoul and let’s say the conversation was not pleasant. > > Raoul is actually a very gentle person, he has been very supportive of the shoots for the last 3 years and has taken personal intitative to advertise our monthly shoots. > > I am not much of a internet person, but I do know things can get out of hand, especially when you offend people. > > I view Martin Luther King as an American hero because when one groups rights are violated, all of our rights our violated and he stood up to evil. > > It is sad that he was murdered, but I believe he lives and he is in heaven right now and I would not want to have to answer to God for that crime. > > Martin Luther King’s death eventually changed America, his enemies made him stronger than ever. > > Martin Luther King or any other human rights leader will never be targets at any shoot I run. > > Our group is open to all people, regardless of race, color, creed, gender, sexual orientation or whatever. Straights are welcome too as long as they aren’t narrow minded. > > Since it is my chapter, I offer apologies, corrective actions have been taken, something like this will not happen again. > > The individual was careless and insensitive, however by now he must have a few hundred pissed off people writing him on this very issue, so I am sure he gets it. > > The San Jose Pink Pistols meets informally monthly and we have a simple and social fun shoot. > > Most of the people who attend the San Jose Pink Pistol shoots are private people, they are not politically active, I am the exception. > > I’m the person who has traveled across the country at my own expense to network and outreach with other gun rights groups. > > Indirectly I promote LBGT rights because of who I am so I assure everyone that corrective action has been taken. > > Mistakes get made, I have made my share in my life and probably will make more. > Fortunately humans are wired to learn from their mistakes. > > To everyone who was offended, all I can say is I am deeply sorry for this incident. > > Nicki Stallard > SJ Pink Pistol Coordinator Well Nicki, While I think you did the right thing to get MLK removed from the target, I think you are also being a bit unfair to Raoul. What is so special about MLK that he needs protecting more than the other targets mentioned? Why is it ok to shoot at Elvis and The Beatles but not MLK? Quoting from an earlier post… "Elvis Presley was born on January 8th, 1935 in Tupelo, Mississippi. He was a popular, successful, and influential musician and actor. His music is still very popular today, and is called the King of Rock and Roll, or “The King”, by many of his admirers. Elvis Presley died on August 16th, 1977 at age 42 years in Memphis, Tennessee. \*\*We’ll commemorate the birthday of Elvis Presley with a target portraying this man \*\*who is acknowledged to be one of the most important figures of 20th-century popular culture. The phonograph record album entitled Yellow Submarine, by the popular band The Beatles, was released in January of 1969. We commemorate the release of this album with a target portraying the Yellow Submarine, based on the album jacket artwork." ---
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/75 "2010-01-18T03:08:52Z")
There’s also a bit more bad taste to be had when you remember that John Lennon was shot to death, too… Maybe they could print up a target with Elvis and Robert Goutlet and a TV in the middle? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/76 "2010-01-18T06:33:22Z")
I _still_ can’t figure out why (some of) you think that shooting a picture of someone stems from the desire to shoot the subject of the picture. What does shooting a picture of Elvis have to do with one’s opinions of Elvis? Have any of you ever _been_ to a shooting range? Not once have I ever seen someone look at their target and go “man I wish that were a real person” or even evaluate the shot group as if it were on a real human being. When you look at a target, you try to hit the center of it. You don’t try to “kill” the target. It’s about accuracy, not lethality. They’re looking at a picture. They’re also trying to put accurate holes into it. BFD, people. I can’t believe this thread is _still_ going even after the club came in here and tried to explain it to you. They even apologized! ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/77 "2010-01-18T15:21:00Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I _still_ can’t figure out why (some of) you think that shooting a picture of someone stems from the desire to shoot the subject of the picture. What does shooting a picture of Elvis have to do with one’s opinions of Elvis? > > Have any of you ever _been_ to a shooting range? Not once have I ever seen someone look at their target and go “man I wish that were a real person” or even evaluate the shot group as if it were on a real human being. When you look at a target, you try to hit the center of it. You don’t try to “kill” the target. It’s about accuracy, not lethality. > > They’re looking at a picture. They’re also trying to put accurate holes into it. BFD, people. I can’t believe this thread is _still_ going even after the club came in here and tried to explain it to you. They even apologized! As an avid shooter, just let me say: You are a moron if you think that shooting at a picture of a person is in any way complimentary to that person. You can’t really be that stupid, can you? ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/78 "2010-01-18T16:06:25Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Have any of you ever _been_ to a shooting range? Not once have I ever seen someone look at their target and go “man I wish that were a real person” or even evaluate the shot group as if it were on a real human being. When you look at a target, you try to hit the center of it. You don’t try to “kill” the target. It’s about accuracy, not lethality. I have, and saw guys shooting at one of those life-sized targets - a silhouette of a woman. Naturally, they shot her in the tits and groin. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/79 "2010-01-18T16:28:09Z")
A responsible shooting range, like the one I go to, doesn’t allow that kind of bullshit. You can’t bring in human shaped targets to begin with, and you can’t act obnoxious or immature at all, or you’ll be asked to leave. But I guess there are all kinds. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847/80 "2010-01-18T22:50:54Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > They were an outsider, though. It’s considered bad form to jump on their backs and slit their throat until _after_ you’ve lured them to a false sense of security. I prefer them fresh and startled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-either-a-careless-or-b-intentionally-ambigous-or-c-outright-inflammatory-email/524847.md?page=5)