# Pitting Fundie Pharmacists Who Won't Fill Birth-Control Prescriptions **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 28, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620 "2005-03-28T16:46:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/121 "2005-03-29T18:42:17Z")
If an egg does not implant, there is no pregnancy. The chances of preventing implantation are really only theoretical and extremely remote anyway and the same theoretical chance exists with regular birth control pills. The MAP is not an abortion pill. If a woman is already pregnant the pill does nothing. This is all beside the point anyway. The fact remains that a pharmicist is being employed to fill prescriptions and if he is unwilling to do his job then he needs to seek other employment. There is also the the issue that a pharmacist has no right to interfere with another person’s health care or prevent her from receiveing medicine duly prescribed by her physician. The douchbags that steal the prescriptions are nothing but criminals. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/122 "2005-03-29T18:44:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Isn’t it odd how the 100% sacred and inviolable right of every person to make up his or her own mind about abortion suddenly gets lots less sacred the instant someone decides anything except “abortion is always a swell idea”? You clearly believe that The Pill causes abortions, which is what this is all about. That’s fine with me, despite the apparent absence of supporting evidence: beliefs don’t have to be rational. I’m all for people making up their own minds about abortions. **However** , people who are opposed to abortions don’t normally apply for jobs in abortion clinics. And if one is opposed to abortions, and one believes that a pharmacy is, to a certain extent, the moral equivalent of an abortion clinic, then one should not be applying for jobs in pharmacies. This is called _taking personal responsibility for one’s beliefs_. I think you’re in favor of that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/123 "2005-03-29T18:46:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Surprisingly, there’s no science to back the theory that birth control pills really do discourage implantation. This claim, made by contraceptive manufacturers for decades, has never been proven, Grimes says. It is incorrect to say that “there is no science to back this up.” The FDA, based on studies up to 1997, said that the morning-after pill did work partially by preventing implantation. Planned Parenthood denies this, citing a later study, but this is by no means the settled scientific consensus. [Cite.](http://www.house.gov/maloney/press/108th/20040512FDABillAnnouncement.htm) Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/124 "2005-03-29T18:54:01Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] **However** , people who are opposed to abortions don’t normally apply for jobs in abortion clinics. And if one is opposed to abortions, and one believes that a pharmacy is, to a certain extent, the moral equivalent of an abortion clinic, then one should not be applying for jobs in pharmacies. [QUOTE] What about when management agrees in not providing these services? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/125 "2005-03-29T18:55:19Z")
> [@brownie55](#): > > If the dumbass was to me, well, I am trying to learn. > > If you read all of the article linked in the OP you will note that some of the large pharmacy chains are supporting this by trying to accomodate the Pharmacists for Life. That makes them doing the job they are getting the paycheck for if their employers accept it. Then the pharmacies have an obligation to provide someone else who can fill the prescriptions. They do not have a right to confiscate the prescriptions. It’s too bad that any business would feel the need to cater to religious bigotry on the part of their employees but as long as they do not not obstruct their customers from receiving their prescribed medicine then it’s the employers’ problem not the customers. The customers also have the option of boycotting the Nazi pharmacies and going to American pharmacies instead…well, actually, that’s not always true. Sometimes Walmart is the only opton available which means you’re going to end up with private corporationsmaking religious decsions about what sort of medicine US citizens may receive. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/126 "2005-03-29T19:04:16Z")
**Shodan** , what is constituted as human life is changed on both sides of the debate in order to accommodate both sides’ point of view. You’ve told me that “Which is, I suspect, exactly why the pro-abortion advocates\* in this thread are so excited about it. If they can get away with defining away the problem, they can overrule the rights of others to choose, and thus impose their point of view on others.” I think this is a poor argument. “Pro-abortion advocates,” as you call them, are hardly taking away others’ right to choose. In fact, they _want_ others to be able to make that choice for themselves. Instead, people like you are taking away any hint of a choice. Therefore you “thus impose [your] point of view on others.” Don’t you get it? If a pharmacist tells me, “Hey, I won’t give this medication to you. All your eggs are potentially viable human beings,” they’ve taken my right to choose not to have a kid. As a personal aside, they’ve probably already sentenced me to having several seizures (my epilepsy is hormone-induced), being unable to drive for an undetermined amount of time and potentially killing or damaging any fetus I might carry, but that’s a whole other story. Either way, the pharmacist doesn’t know that, and he clearly doesn’t give a shit and has chosen to impose his moral sensibilities on me and any children that may result from him refusing to give me my medication (of course, I live in a big city, so that’s not likely to be a problem, but if I did live someplace smaller, I might be up shit creek). Having been to pharmaceutical school, pharmacists damn well ought to know that most pharmacies provide birth control in various forms to their patrons. Whether it’s condoms, a Nuvaring, diaphragm, birth control pills or even an emergency contraceptive, that pharmacist already knows that they will probably be asked to dispense medication or items that will prevent conception or implantation. Knowing that and accepting a position as a pharmacist, only to later refuse said medication or items, to people who need them for whatever reason, could negatively affect the health of the patron. I see that as irresponsible. Why does a pharmacist get to override my doctor’s orders? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/127 "2005-03-29T19:07:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Which is, I suspect, exactly why the pro-abortion advocates\* in this thread are so excited about it. If they can get away with defining away the problem, they can overrule the rights of others to choose, and thus impose their point of view on others. > > Regards, > Shodan That, or it could be the fact that you’re hijacking a thread to put forth your anti-choice agenda. Interesting that we’re talking about birth control and you’re trying to talk about abortion. > [@](#): > > \*No, it would not be correct to refer to them as “pro-choice”, since they are advocating removing the right to choose about abortion under some circumstances, and those circumstances usually seem to be whenever someone refuses to cooperate with some form of abortion-on-demand. Thus they are properly referred to (in this thread) as “pro-abortion”. “Pro-choice” necessarily includes the choice of “No”, else it is no choice at all. I’m concluding then that you are in favor of allowing these pharmacists—remember those pharmacists? You know, the actual topic of discussion?—to ‘choose’ to deny women their rights and their medication? I bet you believe that phrase about how ‘we had to destroy that village in order to save it.’ This makes no sense at all. Period. Removing the right to choose about abortion—Do you really believe your bullshit? What you can’t choose to do is step in on someone else’s rights. We’re talking about self-righteous assholes who are denying women options, who are, in a real way, denying women choices. Somehow that offends you. DEal with that, Shodan. I haven’t seen you address that at all, except to incorrectly state that birth control pills are abortificients. ``` Well, let's see. You can choose not to cause an abortion. You can choose not to have an abortion---oh, wait, that's not an issue for you. You can choose not to get a job that you have no intention beforehand of performing, based on your so-called morals. ``` None of your choices have been infringed upon at all, Shodan, unless you want the choice to control everyone’s life, which I think is the real issue here. And your link leads to a congresswoman’s site, and talks about how the FDA’s decision to not give PlanB OTC status was politically motivated. It doesn’t exactly prove your point. Then again, you don’t even prove your point. I can’t believe I just wasted five minutes of my time replying to this twat. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/128 "2005-03-29T19:16:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It is incorrect to say that “there is no science to back this up.” The FDA, based on studies up to 1997, said that the morning-after pill did work partially by preventing implantation. Planned Parenthood denies this, citing a later study, but this is by no means the settled scientific consensus. [Cite.](http://www.house.gov/maloney/press/108th/20040512FDABillAnnouncement.htm) > [@](#): > > You clearly believe that The Pill causes abortions, which is what this is all about. That’s fine with me, despite the apparent absence of supporting evidence: beliefs don’t have to be rational. Just in case you misunderstood, I was using “The Pill” in its longstanding meaning: the oral contraceptives that women take each day, in order to prevent conception, regularize their cycles, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/129 "2005-03-29T19:18:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, it would not be correct to refer to them as “pro-choice”, since they are advocating removing the right to choose about abortion under some circumstances, and those circumstances usually seem to be whenever someone refuses to cooperate with some form of abortion-on-demand. Enlighten us, O Master: Under what circumstances does a pro-choice person advocating removing the right of anyone else to choose what to do with their own bodies? Oh, I see - the choice you’re referring to is that of some other person to have their own version of morality reign supreme over the land. You can’t have everything the way you want, so you’re pouting. You refuse to try to understand any other view, or even refrain from silly name-calling, in this adolescent self-righteousness that most people your age have outgrown, and you think that’s morality. Damn good thing we don’t let the children run the schools, either. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/130 "2005-03-29T19:20:54Z")
> [@brownie55](#): > > > [@RTFirefly](#): > > > > **However** , people who are opposed to abortions don’t normally apply for jobs in abortion clinics. And if one is opposed to abortions, and one believes that a pharmacy is, to a certain extent, the moral equivalent of an abortion clinic, then one should not be applying for jobs in pharmacies. > > What about when management agrees in not providing these services? There are several different scenarios you might be referring to. (I can think of three off the top of my head.) Care to be more specific in terms of who proposed what, and who responded how? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/131 "2005-03-29T19:22:06Z")
On preview: The morning-after pill is \*not \* The Pill. Different formulations, different functions. One is an abortifacient, one is a contraceptive. But you didn’t know or care about that before entering into your ignorant braying, either. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/132 "2005-03-29T19:27:37Z")
Standard birth control pills have been prescribed as morning after pills in the US for decades. What worries me the most is that legislators in South Dakota, Arkansas and Georgia hope to strengthen existing laws so pharmacists would be able to refuse to transfer or refer prescriptions for contraceptives to other pharmacies. It’s one thing to say “no, I won’t fill this, here’s your prescription back”. It’s quite another to say “I’m not giving you the prescription back. You’ll do something with it that I disagree with”. The former case I find moderately problematic. The latter case I consider potentially criminal. QtM, MD ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/133 "2005-03-29T19:38:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > There are several different scenarios you might be referring to. (I can think of three off the top of my head.) Care to be more specific in terms of who proposed what, and who responded how? Sure, I spoke of my two favorites before. But, here are three: 1. I open Right-To-Life Drugs. I make it a policy that no contraception is sold, no BC no condoms. I hire like minded pharmacists. 2. I open You Chose Pharmacy. I sell both and fire anybody that does not support my policy. 3. I open To-Each-Her-Own Health and let each my pharmacists chose based on his or her morals. I find option 3 repugnant because a patient should be able to know what is available, and I make the policy in my store. It’s a control thing. The other two I accept as viable. And while I disagree whith Shodan’s stand against abortions, I can agree with it in that I don’t believe you have the right to make someone else who may not agree, a participant in yours. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/134 "2005-03-29T19:42:48Z")
In none of these examples is it allowed to not return a perscription. That’s bull crap. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/135 "2005-03-29T19:44:28Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Just in case you misunderstood, I was using “The Pill” in its longstanding meaning: the oral contraceptives that women take each day, in order to prevent conception, regularize their cycles, or whatever. OK, but to muddy the waters further, I believe standard oral contraceptives can also be used as “morning after” pills if you alter the dosage. I think this is a off-label usage, but it can be done. Therefore this nonsense: > [@](#): > > On preview: The morning-after pill is not The Pill. Different formulations, different functions. One is an abortifacient, one is a contraceptive. > > But you didn’t know or care about that before entering into your ignorant braying, either. from one of the Usual Idiots is factually wrong. Sorry, **ElvisL1ves**. \*(On preview, **Qadcop** has already verified that I am correct and **ElvisL1ves** is wrong.) \* I have no idea if the pharmacists involved were refusing to fill prescriptions for regular BC pills on the basis that they could be used this way, or because they were strict Catholics who also opposed standard usage. > [@The aforementioned Usual Idiot](#): > > Enlighten us, O Master: Under what circumstances does a pro-choice person advocating removing the right of anyone else to choose what to do with their own bodies? Apparently if they refuse to cooperate in performing what they consider to be abortions. At least, that is what the anti-choice folks in this thread are advocating. > [@overlyverbose](#): > > “Which is, I suspect, exactly why the pro-abortion advocates\* in this thread are so excited about it. If they can get away with defining away the problem, they can overrule the rights of others to choose, and thus impose their point of view on others.” > > I think this is a poor argument. “Pro-abortion advocates,” as you call them, are hardly taking away others’ right to choose. In fact, they want others to be able to make that choice for themselves. Instead, people like you are taking away any hint of a choice. Therefore you “thus impose [your] point of view on others.” Don’t you get it? If a pharmacist tells me, “Hey, I won’t give this medication to you. All your eggs are potentially viable human beings,” they’ve taken my right to choose not to have a kid. No, not at all. They haven’t interfered with your right not to have a kid until they take some active steps to stop you from exercising that right. Merely declining to assist you is not depriving you of any right, since you have no right to force others to assist you (under current consensus as regards abortion) against their moral judgement. People have the right, for instance, to form voluntary associations. They don’t have the right to force others to admit them. People have the right to advocate for changes in laws, but they cannot force others to assist them in exercising that right. People have the right to obtain abortions, but they don’t have the right to force others to assist them in exercising that right either. To be truly “pro-choice” in this instance would imply that you support the right to choose as regards abortion. Simply saying “you can choose not to support abortion, but I can force you to help me have one” is meaningless, and no choice at all. As long as the decision to support or not support abortion is a private and personal one, and which must be made by everyone in the privacy of his or her own heart, everything is fine. And as long as it only involves those who agree with you, however you decide, everything remains fine. Once you say “I decided abortion is bad, so I will prevent you from getting one performed even by someone who agrees with you”, not fine. Likewise if you say, “I decided abortion is OK, but I will force someone who disagrees with me to assist me in obtaining one”, also not fine. At least for those take the term “pro-choice” seriously. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/136 "2005-03-29T19:48:10Z")
Oh, and “the Aforementioned Idiot” refers to **ElvisL1ves** , who is an idiot, not to **Qadgop** , who is not. **margin** is also an idiot, but there was never any ambiguity about that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/137 "2005-03-29T19:50:28Z")
Once again, we are not talking about abortion pills. The MAP does not cause abortions. Neither do birth control pills at any dose. We are only talking about pills which prevent pregancies from occurring. Abortion is a red herring in this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/138 "2005-03-29T19:50:53Z")
> [@brownie55](#): > > I find option 3 repugnant because a patient should be able to know what is available, and I make the policy in my store. It’s a control thing. The other two I accept as viable. That’s pretty much where I am. And if the owners of Right to Life Pharmacy, and To Each His Own Pharmacy, didn’t clearly advertise their stances themselves, so that customers didn’t find out what their policy was until they actually tried to fill a prescription there, I’d be tempted to get together with some like-minded friends, and buy some local billboard space advertising their policies for them, and suggesting alternative places to do business. > [@](#): > > And while I disagree whith Shodan’s stand against abortions, I can agree with it in that I don’t believe you have the right to make someone else who may not agree, a participant in yours. Oh, absolutely. But it sounds like we agree that the responsibility for avoiding that dilemma, in this area, is on the pharmacist, who should choose to work for a place that doesn’t sell stuff he objects to. ---
**Author:** ![brownie55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f14d63/32.png) [@brownie55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brownie55)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/139 "2005-03-29T19:55:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As long as the decision to support or not support abortion is a private and personal one, and which must be made by everyone in the privacy of his or her own heart, everything is fine. And as long as it only involves those who agree with you, however you decide, everything remains fine. I misstated your opinion. I regret it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620/140 "2005-03-29T19:59:05Z")
So, **Shodan** , how do you feel about the pharmacists in question not returning the prescription slip so the customer can go to another pharmacy and get her doctor-ordered meds? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-fundie-pharmacists-who-wont-fill-birth-control-prescriptions/296620.md?page=8)