# Pitting Honeybadger **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 7, 2018, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183 "2018-03-07T15:40:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/141 "2018-03-08T19:00:14Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > I love how you, an old white dude, are claiming other people are improved by exposure to diverse cultures as you rail against… diverse cultures. I never rally against any American of any nationality or religion to not be a part of the full American experience. I do rally against illegal immigration. Large parts of Los Angels have basically become a 3rd world country. I like my culture and I like aspects of all cultures. I don’t like the thought of other cultures being forced on me through illegal immigration. Has no relation to racism. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/142 "2018-03-08T19:23:27Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I don’t like the thought of other cultures being forced on me through illegal immigration. Has no relation to racism. Any _particular_ cultures in mind? Non-white ones, f’rinstance? ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/143 "2018-03-08T19:38:57Z")
> [@Covfefe](#): > > I have 2 black female acquaintances, both of whom are expecting their firstborn child within the next month. Both of them did get married for the first time within recent years. One of them is a stepmom since her husband had one child out of wedlock in a relationship that didn’t work. And the other is married to a guy significantly older who has at minimum a bit of a “past.” While there are exceptions which cut both ways, the reality is over 75% of black children in the states are born to unmarried parents and this has meaningful correlation in outcomes. You can try to find ways to rationalize the difference away; won’t work, it’s like saying the only reason black male students are disproportionately suspended and expelled is institutional racism. > > I would definitely give my moral support to these 2 women even though their circumstances may not be ideal. I think it’s commendable they waited and were in stable committed relationships before becoming mothers. I would not necessarily shame adults who choose to become parents in much different circumstances and I’ll go so far to say I think systemized racism is a huge causal factor in why black families overall are more broken to this day. What I won’t do is act like I don’t think personal choices have nothing to do with inequality. Well, aren’t you noble? The personal choice of a lot of women is to not encumber themselves and their children with deadweight fathers. That’s much better than making things worse for themselves and their families simply to have a man around. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/144 "2018-03-08T19:43:32Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > Well, aren’t you noble? The personal choice of a lot of women is to not encumber themselves and their children with deadweight fathers. That’s much better than making things worse for themselves and their families simply to have a man around. I agree, many women are finding cordless appliances more than an adequate substitute for a lazy male moocher. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/145 "2018-03-08T19:59:46Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Large parts of Los Angels have basically become a 3rd world country. I like my culture and I like aspects of all cultures. I don’t like the thought of other cultures being forced on me through illegal immigration. Has no relation to racism. Yes, imagine a decent God-fearing American town like The Angels or Saint Francis being overwhelmed by hordes of immigrants looking to make a quick buck, and being forced to change its culture and even language. I mean, you do know that California was FUCKING MEXICAN before it was FUCKING ANNEXED by the United States, right? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/146 "2018-03-08T20:20:45Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Yes, imagine a decent God-fearing American town like The Angels or Saint Francis being overwhelmed by hordes of immigrants looking to make a quick buck, and being forced to change its culture and even language. I mean, you do know that California was FUCKING MEXICAN before it was FUCKING ANNEXED by the United States, right? Yes and it was Native American before it was Mexican. Every land on the globe has been taken over by conquerors in most cases many times over. California is part of the United States now. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/147 "2018-03-08T20:22:18Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Any _particular_ cultures in mind? Non-white ones, f’rinstance? Mostly cultures that believe illegal dumping anywhere you can get away with it is fine. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/148 "2018-03-08T20:31:18Z")
> [@B-Rad](#): > > So sad. But given me (partial) Irish heritage I’m also an ancestral victim who has been able to set aside centuries of abuse at the hands of those pesky English, and considerable ill-will right here in the good old USofA into the 20th century. You know why the Irish had such ill-will in the 19th century? Because they were considered undesirable, non-white immigrants. Same shit, different day. Whiteness is a toxic ideological brew. Those of us that swim in it need to recognize what we’re swimming in and figure out how to get healthy. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/149 "2018-03-08T20:39:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You know why the Irish had such ill-will in the 19th century? Because they were considered undesirable, non-white immigrants. > > Same shit, different day. Whiteness is a toxic ideological brew. Those of us that swim in it need to recognize what we’re swimming in and figure out how to get healthy. It’s also a surprisingly recent concept: before the early 19th century the more common narrative was of the superiority of individual nations; if you were British, you wouldn’t claim kinship with an Italian or a Spaniard as a member of an over-arching “white” race. Nell Painter’s [The History of White People](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/books/review/Gordon-t.html?pagewanted=all) is a hugely recommended read. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/150 "2018-03-08T20:45:24Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Mostly cultures that believe illegal dumping anywhere you can get away with it is fine. [Oh, you mean cultures that endorse dumping like this?](https://timeline.com/this-poor-hispanic-town-in-california-has-been-fighting-a-local-toxic-waste-dump-for-35-years-8f6f20f89f9d) > [@](#): > > They objected to the common thread of hazardous waste sites, that they were almost always built in communities of the poor and disenfranchised, disproportionately affecting people of color. You know, you’re allowed to _look_ at your prejudices before you shoot your mouth off each time. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/151 "2018-03-08T21:11:21Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > [Oh, you mean cultures that endorse dumping like this?](https://timeline.com/this-poor-hispanic-town-in-california-has-been-fighting-a-local-toxic-waste-dump-for-35-years-8f6f20f89f9d) > > You know, you’re allowed to _look_ at your prejudices before you shoot your mouth off each time. I object to that as much as the resident do, what has that got to do with me complaining about illegal dumping. Are you saying that the white man dumped hazardous material in a Latino neighborhood so it is ok for Latinos to dump waste in white neighborhoods?? Illegal dumping is illegal regardless of who the hell is doing it, no connection to the topic. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/152 "2018-03-08T21:20:00Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I object to that as much as the resident do, what has that got to do with me complaining about illegal dumping. Are you saying that the white man dumped hazardous material in a Latino neighborhood so it is ok for Latinos to dump waste in white neighborhoods?? Illegal dumping is illegal regardless of who the hell is doing it, no connection to the topic. From my POV, you keep calling out things that black people do, or immigrants do, and when it’s pointed out that all people do these things (or that you do these things), you just shrug. You: “Black people breathe. I have a problem with that.” Us: “All people breathe. You breathe.” You: “I never said we didn’t!” ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/153 "2018-03-08T21:43:22Z")
I am not calling it out as being so wrong and offensive as much as I am calling it out as being detrimental to an already challenging life scenario they are facing. They need every advantage they can get and there best strategy is to find their way into the mainstream. I acknowledged earlier that it wasn’t really fair but I don’t feel fair is something we have a lot of control over. Once a group successfully integrates things get fairer but as a group it takes a little extra effort. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/154 "2018-03-08T21:47:30Z")
I’ll repeat some questions I had earlier that might have gotten lost: If what you say is true. How long has it been true? Have blacks just been their own worst enemy since the Civil War? Since they got the right to vote? Since the invention of rap music? Since they started getting good at (allowed to play) basketball? Did blacks always have bad role models, or did that problem happen at a moment in history. I’d honestly like to know when that was, and if you could describe what that transition looked like. When did black Americans turn their back on American culture and community to follow anti-leaders? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/155 "2018-03-08T21:56:56Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I’ll repeat some questions I had earlier that might have gotten lost: > > If what you say is true. How long has it been true? Have blacks just been their own worst enemy since the Civil War? Since they got the right to vote? Since the invention of rap music? Since they started getting good at (allowed to play) basketball? Did blacks always have bad role models, or did that problem happen at a moment in history. I’d honestly like to know when that was, and if you could describe what that transition looked like. When did black Americans turn their back on American culture and community to follow anti-leaders? I can’t answer that and I don’t think it has been the same in all parts of the country. I know white attitudes have been steadily improving since the 1960’s even in the deep south I have seen a huge improvement. This past decade I feel like I have been noticing more open hostility toward whites by blacks. Just when we start getting our side of the street cleaned up the other side starts getting messy. i am talking about a significant portion of the population but no where near the majority. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/156 "2018-03-08T21:57:44Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > Well, aren’t you noble? The personal choice of a lot of women is to not encumber themselves and their children with deadweight fathers. That’s much better than making things worse for themselves and their families simply to have a man around. It’s been my observation, that the lives of the woman and the children are drastically improved, once the drunk abusive lazy “daddy” is told “either you disappear or we’ll MAKE you disappear”. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/157 "2018-03-08T22:15:55Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > They need every advantage they can get and there best strategy is to find their way into the mainstream. What if they’re happy in their stream. Why do they have to change streams? Who declares which stream is the main one? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/158 "2018-03-08T22:25:23Z")
> [@andros](#): > > 1. The only reason black male students are disproportionately suspended and expelled is institutional racism. > > 2. You say you’re acknowledging the role systemic and historic racism (and generational poverty?) plays in peoples’ lives, but then continue with the old “personal responsibility” thing as though individual choices are made in a vacuum without context. Or rather, without your own preferred context. > . 1. I doubt that. You can attribute my opinion to bad motives if you like. I don’t assume yours is, but I don’t think that statement is close to true, though I couldn’t give a particular alternative %. 2. Related to a history of racism, obviously yes IMO. ‘Systemic racism’ now, I’d probably put that as a much lesser factor than you would. But anyway some weight on the first two doesn’t exclude bad choices and behavior which individuals could take personality responsibility (no scare quotes required) for and correct. I do agree with the previous statements by various people that at least in terms of rate of change in measures of social decay (_increase_ in fatherless upbringings, increase in non-participation in the workforce at prime working age etc) ‘whites’ are arguably in worse shape lately than non ‘whites’ or African-Americans specifically. But that’s not something to cheer from any pro-American POV. If it was African American stats in those areas getting a lot better when white stats stayed the same, OK. But IMO the complex mechanism of race relations is affected by a feedback mechanism related to real issues like educational achievement and crime rate differentials in absolute terms which tend to sustain anti-black feeling. I don’t believe those are just bad faith arguments by people who need any excuse to not like black people, nor that are they just illusions caused by a prism of systemic racism now. I do reject the construction of ‘it’s up to X as a whole to fix their problem’. I think that’s consistent with rejecting the scare quoting of individual responsibility. I can see a complaint about claiming to promote individual responsibility then in the same breath talking about some special responsibility of all members of a social group to control the actions of other individuals. That’s a contradiction, unless it’s their own kids. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/159 "2018-03-08T22:33:23Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > . . . there [sic] best strategy is to find their way into the mainstream. . . No. That’s the least disruptive strategy for you. The **BEST** strategy is for us all to come together and adapt the “mainstream” so that nobody has to “find their way into” it! mc ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183/160 "2018-03-08T22:33:58Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > What if they’re happy in their stream. Why do they have to change streams? Who declares which stream is the main one? If they are happy that’s fine with me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-honeybadger/810183.md?page=9)