# Pitting Jane Says and Terminator Gold 3000 - by Manhattan's Request **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 2, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382 "2003-02-02T23:38:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2003, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/81 "2003-02-04T18:55:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\* > Conversely, I have seen employees who drink a lot come stumbling in to work bleary eyed and hung over after partying all night. I think that this has a far more detrimental effect on their job performance than a little bit of weed. \*\* Strange how habitual marijuana users always defend their habit by saying “well, look at THAT, it’s legal and it’s not as bad!” Even if true, it’s not a very logical defense. It doesn’t actually say anything at all about marijuana, and you always run the risk of losing the argument to some teetotaler jumping up with “well, then THAT should be illegal too.” If someday you become an H.R. director, then you can make your judgment about the relation of alcohol abuse to job performance and institute policies the way you see fit. Maybe it _is_ more detrimental to work than marijuana, maybe the employer’s making a bad decision with his policy, but he’s still free to make that bad decision. The other thing to consider, though, is the effects of alchohol are varied. One can drink a couple beers watching the football game Monday night and not get drunk or in any way intoxicated. You can drink for reasons like taste that have nothing to do with getting intoxicated and you can moderate it so that you are ok after use. It’s certainly _possible_ to smoke say…ONE drag off a joint…and not get high. But who the hell smokes pot for any reason other than to get high? It sure ain’t the taste. You smoke, you get high, and you’ll be that way for a while no matter what you do. OTOH, it’s possible to drink every day and never get drunk. If you smoke pot even occasionally you _will_ be high at some point. So evidence of alcohol usage doesn’t really tell you anything about that person unless you know his particular style of drinking: casual, or binge? You don’t know if that person is ever drunk. Evidence of potsmoking tells you that person _does_ become high. To an employer, this might be enough to make the judgment call that the potsmoker is potentially unreliable, and he’ll hold out on the alcohol user until he knows more. It’s his call. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/82 "2003-02-05T02:06:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > But it seems no less valid, intellectually, to just smoke that joint without bothering to justify it, due to mentally classifying it as a not particularly serious or harmful breach of the law, as it does for me and my compatriots to go 70 in a 55 zone every weekday morning and evening. Think that if you must - me, I do in fact hold to speed limit whenever possible (I will go faster to avoid an accident). Maybe 5 over - but blowing it by 15 mph? No, I can’t justify that, either. As I’ve said before - if you’re smoking that joint in your own home, or some other place where you won’t affect anyone else adversely I don’t give a damn. Really, I don’t. But as soon as your actions might negatively impact someone else… then I do have opinions on the matter. > [@](#): > > I agree that you shouldn’t drink and drive, or drink and fly. (I don’t understand how the former essentially prevents you from drinking on weeknights, but that’s neither here nor there.) Just for the record - drug (of any kind) use and flying do not mix well. A drug (any drug) can have effects on your system long after you come down from the high. Sudafed, for instance - normally considered pretty harmless - has been found to be a contributing cause in several helicoptor crashes. Smoking reduces the body’s ability to process oxygen, in some cases to the point that a pilot’s vision can start to be impaired as low as 5000 feet above sea level, particularly at night. Alcohol not only has stronger effects at altitude, but the dehydrating effects are not good for clear thinking or fast reactions, either. Hence, the regulation of _at least_ 8 hours between your last drink - no matter how small - and taking the controls. As a result - in general if you fly often you drink seldom. Since I’ll spend from 7 in the morning to 8 or 9 at night at the airport many weekends that leaves damn little time for drinking. Drunk/drugged pilots - despite recent publicity - are rare. Most are found on the post-mortem drug test rather than before they board the plane. Is that because they cheat … or because it’s just fucking dangerous to do shit then fly? It’s all about choices, folks. If you choose to participate in certain activities - piloting a plane, driving a school bus, etc. - you may have to give up the drugs. If you don’t want to give up the drugs, you may not be able to participate in some activities either for reasons of safety or law. I get frustrated at spoiled brats who can’t understand that _no, you can’t do both._ Don’t like the law? - work to get it changed. But there will always be some occupations that are not compatible with either drug use or drug abuse. Do I think a stockboy at WalMart falls into that category? Well, maybe if he’s driving a forklift. Not if he’s stacking rolls of toilet paper. Don’t like the fact a particular employer gives drug tests? Go work for someone else. Vote with your feet. There are lots of jobs that don’t require the testing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/83 "2003-02-05T02:15:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jane\_says \* > As for the “kid”, who’s actually a little older than me (28), he was getting Percocet 10 mg., 180 per month, the same medication I was taking at the time due to a back injury, and we “lent” each other pills when we ran low, so I can tell you they were legit. You still don’t understand. If you have a LEGITIMATE prescription for, say, Percocet and you come up positive for Percocet you’re still in the clear – in fact, it confirms that it’s a valid test. Way back when, if someone came in for a drug test but had a legit script for something like Percocet (this is why you’re supposed to be asked if you’re on something from a doctor) we’d mark that down on a form and go to a more sensitive test that could distinguish between Perc and other stuff. Have Perc? That’s OK and expected. Come up clean with everything else? That’s cool. Have THC, PCP, and methadone as well? You’re fucked. Of course, not everyone uses the more sensitive (and more expensive) test - some will just delay the test till you’re off the stuff, others will just toss the sample. So your anecdote proves nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/84 "2003-02-05T02:18:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*But I don’t have much sympathy for people who know the law and just continue to break the law, and then whine and moan when there are negative consequences like the world is out to fucking get them. \*\* Ditto ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/85 "2003-02-05T02:32:06Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* Think that if you must - me, I do in fact hold to speed limit whenever possible (I will go faster to avoid an accident). Maybe 5 over - but blowing it by 15 mph? No, I can’t justify that, either. [quote] Then, law or no law, I would advise you to stay off Route 4 at rush hour. A car going 5 over will be easily the slowest car on the road most mornings, and as a result will be the greater safety hazard. > [@](#): > > Just for the record - drug (of any kind) use and flying do not mix well. Since you keep hammering this one into the ground, I’ll ask: why do you need to all but give up drinking, just to fly **on weekends**?? I mean, what modest drinking I do is mostly after I get home in the evenings. Seems there’s plenty of time for an ale or a stout in the typical p.m., rather than essentially giving it up and getting all Church Lady about it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/86 "2003-02-05T02:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jane\_says \* > Gracious sakes alive, **Broomstick**! Yesterday I was willing to believe that maybe you’d had a bad day Actually, it’s been a bad fucking week. Not that that matters. > [@](#): > > and chose to take it out on some anonymous person on a message board Nope, I normally rant about the people who piss me off. Are you finding it so hard to believe I actually do find you contemptible? > [@](#): > > it looks like you’re just a grouchy bear in general. I wonder if you talk that way all the time or if you’re just bulking up your Nasty Quotient for effect I’m _sorry_ - did you mistake me for a Nice Girl, perhaps? Have I done or said anything to make you believe I am a particularly sweet and pacifistic human being? And no, I don’t _talk_ that way “all the time”. Occassionally I let actions speak louder than words. If you have any doubts of whether or not the folks at my house are “nice” people you can ask the motherfucker who tried to steal my pickup today (I _did_ mention it’s been a bad week, didn’t I?). You can find him at one of the local hospitals. No, we do not own a gun. I don’t have to own a gun to be One Bad Bitch. > [@](#): > > It’s a shame that your FOUR YEARS in drug rehab didn’t do anything for your people skills or attitude. It’s a shame that you are so intent on being right that you are blind to anything anyone says to you. Four years in the drug rehab industry taught me to recognize a bullshitter. “People skills” do not require me to be a doormat. What pisses off the likes of you is that I AM right. You advocate breaking the law, then cheating to cover up the fact. As I said - I don’t give a damn what you do in your own home - but what you’re advocating (if it actually _worked_. which it _doesn’t_) would enable drug _addicts_, as opposed to _casual users_ or _responsible users_, to evade the safety net society erects to keep shitheads out of positions where they might hurt someone else. Or are you going to whine you’d only recommned Mega-Flush Platinum 50000 to “casual” potheads but NEVER breathe a word of it to a “real” junkie? It’s like passing out designs and supplies for pipebombs at a high school - it’s irresponsible. And THAT is why you’re a sleazeball - you’re irresponsible and enabling. > [@](#): > > It’s also a shame that you couldn’t Pit me without instructions from someone else. That wasn’t “instructions”, that was a “suggestion”. Actually, I’ve pitted plenty of folks without being requested to do so - so feel honored, you’re an exception to the rule. > [@](#): > > I forgive you for not being a big enough person to say “You know, I got a little overzealous. You said something I disagreed with, I was angry, and I said nasty, viscious things. I still think you shouldn’t have said what you did, and I disagree with you completely and wholeheartedly. But the things I said you were over the top.” I said “nasty, vicious things” because I sincerely find people who advocate “flushing” to enable drug users and abusers to cheat on drugs tests to be floorscrapings. It’s not a matter that I _disagree_ with you - I _really do_ find you vile and disgusting. I’ve seen the damage done by both the shit sold as a “flush” and the attitudes that make it somehow OK to use and abuse as long as you “get away with it”. It’s _EXACTLY_ the same sort of justification used by junkies to excuse their contemptible, illegal, and immoral actions. Don’t like that analogy? Here’s another one - you’re like a fence for stolen goods. You didn’t _actually_ steal anything, you just help keep the thieves in business. You’re not _actually_ an addict, right? You just give them suggestions on how to keep using without getting caught. > [@](#): > > The Pit is a place I generally try to avoid as I don’t enjoy meanness and I don’t get off on insulting strangers. Then why are you here now? > [@](#): > > I mean, after processing all the information in that ONE POST you read, and all. Sometimes just a little bit is all it takes. Get this through your thick skull: _I loathe the practice of “flushing” to cheat drug tests and think those who promote it are either dupes or assholes._ So… decide. Are you a dupe or an asshole? > [@](#): > > Maybe it’s all you have to keep you going, that feeling of superiority to someone you’ve never met. Far be it from me to take it away from you. You _wish_ I was that pathetic. Tell me - isn’t pathetic when someone who normally doesn’t inhabit the Pit is down here groveling and sniveling trying to get someone who finds them disgusting, pathetic, and on the level of shoe-scrapings to apologize? Any _other_ lost causes you indulge in? ---
**Author:** ![samarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@samarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samarm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/87 "2003-02-05T09:27:27Z")
**Broomstick** and others: I’ve been out of this thread for a while, and I’ve just reviewed my posts. I think I came across as a bit of a jerk. When I posted my comments it was late, and I was a bit stressed out. Just wanted to say sorry for coming across so harshly, I didn’t intend to sound so arrogant. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/88 "2003-02-05T10:43:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > I mean, what modest drinking I do is mostly after I get home in the evenings. Same here. What little drinking I do is either on the holidays, or after I get home from work. How does this contradict anything I’ve said? The question I was answering was why don’t I drink on the weekends. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/89 "2003-02-05T14:13:11Z")
Yeah, but you said you had to all but give up drinking altogether (“And I **did** most certainly enjoy my beer, stout, vodka, and single-malt scotch _in those days prior to taking the stick_.” (emphasis mine)) - and expected everyone else who flew to abide by similar standards. So by only saying why you don’t drink on weekends, you left a lot of territory unaccounted for, in terms of why you were now denying yourself those pleasures, and expected others similarly situated to hold themselves to a similar standard. So I gather then that you **do** still periodically enjoy such beverages, and that flying (combined with normal driving) hasn’t _necessitated_ that you go for weeks between beers or whatever, whether you actually do so or not. ---
**Author:** ![jane\_says](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/47e85d/32.png) [@jane\_says](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jane_says)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/90 "2003-02-06T00:15:22Z")
One last post, and I am washing my hands of this ridiculous affair. I must not have made myself clear about the “kid”, **Broomstick** , but what I meant was no insurance = no doctor = no script. He was no longer being prescribed what he was taking. I am aware that a drug test cannot differentiate between my Percocets and your Percocets. Okay, you are able to find someone “contemptible” because their opinion regarding a perfectly legal substance differs from yours, mostly because of your FOUR YEARS :snicker: of substance abuse treatment experience. You are a self-styled “bad bitch” 😉 who apparently caused someone to be hospitalized due to your brutal beating very recently, all over your pickem-up truck. I bow before your self-righteous bad ass. FTR, I am “here” because you attempted a little flame at me. I won’t ask you to point out where I have groveled and/or snivelled, because it can’t be done. I asked you to be a decent human being, but the order was too tall for you. I pity you. It must suck to be so angry all the time. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/91 "2003-02-06T02:44:34Z")
> [@](#): > > FTR, I am “here” because you attempted a little flame at me. I won’t ask you to point out where I have groveled and/or snivelled, because it can’t be done. I asked you to be a decent human being, but the order was too tall for you. I pity you. It must suck to be so angry all the time. While I don’t share quite the same level of intense feeling about your behavior as Broomstick does, it did not escape my notice that she _did_ explain to you why exactly she felt your actions and/or attitudes were contemptable. If you want to gloss over that part, and simply imply that she came down on you so strongly because she’s a “bad bitch” or just in a bad mood, no one can stop you. But it seems to me that there’s a whole bunch more to it than that, (and she _did_ spell it out for you). Ignoring it won’t make it go away. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382/92 "2003-02-06T03:59:51Z")
You know, I love a glass of wine every once in a while-it’s relaxing and it tastes good. HOWEVER-I am on Paxil and Ritalin, and I am advised that alcohol counteracts my meds. Therefore, I only have a drink on special occassions. Does it suck? Well, not really, only in that I wish I could try a daquiri or something like that. I also have to really watch my caffeine intake. Drinking also tends to make me incredibly sleepy. So, I deal with it, and I tend to abstain. Priorities, that’s the whole point of this thread, I think. What is more of a priority. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-jane-says-and-terminator-gold-3000-by-manhattans-request/152382.md?page=4)