# Pitting Max\_S **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074 "2022-02-08T00:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/241 "2022-03-11T02:22:48Z")
Well, ol’ Max here is doing quite a lot of tap dancing. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2022, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/242 "2022-03-11T07:50:07Z")
In fact, John Oliver did a show within the past few years about [bias in medicine](https://youtu.be/TATSAHJKRd8), which includes a section on black people and pain/stress, and so on. Interesting show, and at least tangential to the convo at hand. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2022, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/243 "2022-03-12T04:02:38Z")
> [@WV black lawmaker gets email with KKK graphic and anti-abortion message...also sues. Is this right?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wv-black-lawmaker-gets-email-with-kkk-graphic-and-anti-abortion-message-also-sues-is-this-right/959845/151): > > I acknowledge that I’m not Black, and surely that plays an unconscious role in my opinion. But I can guarantee you, in the state of West Virginia, Black jurors will make up the minority of any jury, in the unlikely case that Black jurors are present at all. I have thus far tried to avoid revealing how I empathize with Ms. Walker, but since you called me out on it directly, I may as well explain. Large spoilers so as not to screw up thread navigation. > > > **Emphasizing with Delegate Walker (Click t…** > > Wow, that’s an awfully long post to explain in detail that you completely lack empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2022, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/244 "2022-03-14T22:35:15Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Perhaps you are forgetting how trials work? The jury will get to hear at least one, and possibly more, black people explain to them how this imagery caused trauma, and those people will try to present it in a way that carries maximum impact. I think you are missing my point. The question is whether the defendant should have been certain or substantially certain his email would inflict emotional distress. Intentional infliction of emotional distress (IIED) is recognized at common law as the tort of outrageous conduct. From what I’ve read, there are four elements that must be proved: - there is a causal relationship between the conduct and the emotional distress - the distress inflicted is so severe that no reasonable man (or woman) could be expected to endure it - the conduct was intentional or reckless; meaning either - he acted with intent to inflict extreme emotional distress (intentional), or - he should have known his conduct was substantially certain to result in extreme emotional distress (reckless) - the conduct has been so outrageous in character, and so extreme in degree, as to go beyond all possible bounds of decency, and to be regarded as atrocious, and utterly intolerable in a civilized community. I’m willing to grant the first two elements. I am not convinced on the third and fourth elements. The line of argument **MrDibble** ultimately pitted me for was concerning this prong - the conduct was […] reckless; meaning […] - he should have known his conduct was substantially certain to result in extreme emotional distress (reckless) The “presentation” you are thinking about addresses the first and second points. It won’t necessarily hit on this third point. You could have every single Black person in West Virginia testify that the image is horribly traumatizing, and even that would not in and of itself show that the defendant should have been certain - _before the trial_ - that the email would cause distress. I don’t want to say it’s hopeless, that’s just not the right approach if you are trying to convince someone like _me_. Having a Black person take the stand and say it hurts them is, essentially, an appeal to authority. The authority of the victim’s trauma. It is saying, the defendant should have known his conduct was certain to cause distress because these authorities - the victim, or victims of similar incidents - say it causes distress. This argument, of course, relies heavily on a hidden premise, which I think is very poor. - Experts know that his conduct is certain to cause extreme emotional distress - [**The defendant should have known what experts know**] - Therefore, the defendant should have known his conduct was certain to cause extreme emotional distress Even if the people on the stand totally convince me, _I_ didn’t know until they told me. How could I say the defendant should have known before sending the email? Now take that same explanation, which proves that such imagery is certain to cause extreme emotional distress for any Black person… If it is present in a popular movie, or song, and you can argue that the defendant knows it through that - _there’s_ direct evidence. Or if you _can_ explain using reason rather than appeals to authority - that works, too. I can’t think of such an explanation, but I won’t rule out that it might exist. The plaintiff’s lawyer could present this kind of explanation directly to the jury, in the opening statement for example. And then press it upon the defendant’s character witnesses. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > And while an ordinary garden variety asshat might believe that the woman that claims to have suffered extreme emotional pain is a faker or a snowflake, it takes a very special kind of high-achieving asshat to attempt to argue 11 other people into that position. While it’s easy enough for some random dude on the internet to argue make the argument that the emotional distress claim is ginned up, it’s not going to go over well in a courtroom in front of the victim and -possibly- prominent advocates from the black community. At no point did I ever say or imply Ms. Walker was faking her emotional pain. I expressly wrote that I believe her, multiple times now. As to the jury, it would consist of six jurors. The civil standard of proof does not change the requirement for a unanimous verdict. I haven’t been using the reasonable doubt standard at any point in this discussion. I argued for a raised standard of proof because the circumstances (plaintiff is a legislator), but still not beyond a reasonable doubt; yet from what I’ve seen, even the balance of probabilities isn’t met. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/245 "2022-03-15T02:21:25Z")
Did you attend the George Wallace School of Law? I think sending someone racially based threats, even if they are slightly veiled, is a textbook example of extreme and outrageous conduct that is not acceptable in polite society. I think this speaks volumes about you. Have you ever heard the one about how you should stop digging if you find yourself in a hole? I’m starting to think that hole is your soul. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/246 "2022-03-15T03:13:56Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t want to say it’s hopeless, that’s just not the right approach if you are trying to convince someone like _me_ . So, you are claiming to be utterly lacking in empathy, and to never have noticed the ways in which Black people are threatened in the US. That doesn’t speak well to your character. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/247 "2022-03-15T05:27:20Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Experts know that his conduct is certain to cause extreme emotional distress No, motherfucker, ordinary, empathetic people on the street know that it is highly likely (“certain” is such an obvious goalpost-move I’m embarrassed for you that you even tried it). Of course, the empathetic part _is_ necessary. Merely pathetic is not a substitute. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/248 "2022-03-15T11:21:33Z")
is it _possible_ for someone to not know or at least suspect that such an image would cause distress? Sure. Is it _also possible_ that such a person would send that image without ill intent? Perhaps. But I find it vanishingly small that such a person exists. Perhaps I’m naive. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/249 "2022-03-15T17:17:01Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I think sending someone racially based threats, even if they are slightly veiled, is a textbook example of extreme and outrageous conduct that is not acceptable in polite society. If we’re now talking about the extreme/outrageous component… I also think racially based threats are beyond the pale. But I don’t think the email in question is a threat. Again, not sure if you read the other topic where I argued this point. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/250 "2022-03-15T17:24:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > it is highly likely If by highly likely you mean more likely than not, I don’t even agree with that. > [@MrDibble](#): > > (“certain” is such an obvious goalpost-move I’m embarrassed for you that you even tried it) For example, the Supreme Court of Appeals of West Virginia has [written](http://www.courtswv.gov/supreme-court/docs/spring1998/24207.htm), > Accordingly, we hold that in order for a plaintiff to prevail on a claim for intentional or reckless infliction of emotional distress, four elements must be established. It must be shown: (1) that the defendant’s conduct was atrocious, intolerable, and so extreme and outrageous as to exceed the bounds of decency; (2) that the defendant acted with the intent to inflict emotional distress, or acted recklessly when it was **certain or substantially certain** emotional distress would result from his conduct; (3) that the actions of the defendant caused the plaintiff to suffer emotional distress; and, (4) that the emotional distress suffered by the plaintiff was so severe that no reasonable person could be expected to endure it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/251 "2022-03-15T23:39:57Z")
I was undecided at the beginning of this thread, but the various posts have convinced me that Max is an unempathetic shithead, who is in serious denial about his racist proclivities. And somewhat ironically, it was his posts in this thread that convinced me. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/252 "2022-03-16T00:35:11Z")
Not an unusual outcome for Pit threads. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/253 "2022-03-16T01:04:26Z")
Partial Hijack - While I’m in the moderate pro-Pit faction, I do agree that certain personality types prefer to self destruct / double down on their behaviors so they can be seen (if only to themselves) as ‘winning’. I do think several people in the thread have repeatedly pointed this out - that by trying for a ‘technical’ win, you just make your original, less technical points look all the worse, and refusing to acknowledge it except for the most back-handed comments, just digs you in deeper. So a pit thread, overall, is good for the rest of the board, but it does tend to make the pittee go -further- into the unacceptable behavior. Sadly, it’s up to said person to actually go back and look at what they said, from as dispassionate POV as possible, and hopefully _think_ about what people are saying, rather than trying to ‘win’. So here’s my advice @Max_S - take a break, say 48 hours, from this thread, and the topic in question. Go off, do something else. Then come back and read the original posts and what you’ve said here - and try, TRY not to win, try to look at like someone new to the board reading it would. And think about it. Maybe it’ll help, maybe it won’t, but it probably won’t hurt anyone in anyway on any of the sides. Peace, out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/254 "2022-03-16T05:57:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If by highly likely you mean more likely than not, I don’t even agree with that. …and your absolutely telling lack of experience listening to African Americans, both in real life and media, clearly shows in this statement. I mean, how can you live in a state that’s 15% Black and _not_ speak to Black people? Only by making a concerted effort, I’m sure. > [@Max\_S](#): > > For example, the Supreme Court of Appeals of West Virginia I’m talking about you moving the goalposts from the language used _by me_ up to now, which spoke of high probability, not certainty. I’ve in fact corrected you before on that. I don’t give a crap what WV law says on this - once again, I’ve been talking about what the case _should be_, not what it is almost certainly going to be under Whiteness. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/255 "2022-03-16T06:09:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I was undecided at the beginning of this thread, but the various posts have convinced me that Max is an unempathetic shithead, who is in serious denial about his racist proclivities. I agree. I started out thinking he was a garden-variety pedant, just another internet sea lion, but this whole discussion has reoriented my perception. He’s a genuine asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/256 "2022-03-16T10:03:42Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I agree. I started out thinking he was a garden-variety pedant, just another internet sea lion, but this whole discussion has reoriented my perception. He’s a genuine asshole. He’s fighting ignorance, but not in the way he thinks he is. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/257 "2022-03-16T10:19:14Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > This is where you guys are giving him too much credit. He’s a transparent “polite” racist who is playing you for fools. That’s it. I don’t think one can truly read what’s in a person’s head. But when someone is so committed to the bit that they continue indulging in trollish behavior after being told that it seems entirely trollish and not helpful, then in terms of culpability this is indistinguishable from deliberate, premeditated trolling. I will say I share your suspicion. This character seems like someone said “let’s take a tendentious shitbird like Bricker, and add the glib idiocy of Shodan (including the annoying signoff), and see if it can generate a thousand-page Pit thread.” I think there’s a smallish but very real chance that this is what the Max\_S character is, or some similar contrivance. Sadly, the policies and moderation of the board are not equipped to handle this sort of fuckbrain. On the contrary, it has served to nurture and embolden such characters to the point that they can poison discourse for literally _decades_ at a time. All the while, bringing nothing of value except perhaps the fig leaf of saying “see, we represent both sides here, even if one side is shitty and annoying.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/258 "2022-03-16T12:16:13Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I started out thinking he was a garden-variety pedant, just another internet sea lion, but this whole discussion has reoriented my perception. He’s a genuine asshole. Like the late Justice Warren, he could be both. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/259 "2022-03-16T12:29:45Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I mean, how can you live in a state that’s 15% Black and _not_ speak to Black people? Only by making a concerted effort, I’m sure. I dunno. The US is very segregated. I’ve worked with several Black colleagues, but some when i lived in NYC, and others when i worked for an employer with a fairly strong affirmative action program. And the ones in NYC were more open about talking about the experience of being Black in America. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/260 "2022-03-16T12:43:58Z")
I live in NYC , a city which has a population of about 32% white, non-Hispanic people. Most days, I don’t encounter any of them, and I’m not making any particular effort to avoid them. If I lived in a different neighborhood and worked in a different job, I would have a different experience. So it’s not at all inconceivable to me that someone might not encounter a group that makes up 15% of the population all that often. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=14)