# Pitting Max\_S **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074 "2022-02-08T00:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/401 "2022-05-19T17:05:55Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Either 3 or 4 depending on circumstances not specified. So, depending on the circumstances, you would either merely not help them flee slavery, or you would actively participate in enslaving them. If you’re going to admit that you don’t even think slavery is wrong, how the fuck are supposed to see you other than a racist who sees black people as inferior? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/402 "2022-05-19T17:06:17Z")
Kant was largely ignorant of other races. He lived his entire life in Konigsberg on the Baltic Sea and is not believed to have ever been more than a day’s horse ride away from the city. He died in 1804, and virtually his only knowledge of, and experience with, non-European races was in travel journals that basically asserted indigenous folk around the globe were a “lower order of human.” That to me is very, very different from a more modern racist who has a lot of scientific and logical reasons to know that is bullshit, Kant only could know the world through reading, and when the only people writing the books were reporting strongly bigoted prejudices as facts, he had little real ability to know any better. As someone dead since 1804 Kant doesn’t really need defense or excuse–he was a very smart man, but you can’t easily be smarter than the knowledge sources of your culture/society. That should be the proper frame of reference for evaluating his racial opinions–which essentially are without merit, but also importantly do not much intersect with his deontological ethical framework for which he is most well known. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/403 "2022-05-19T17:06:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Really? Why? I can imagine doing 3 if I was scared of the reprecussions (though I intentionally picked Vermont as a relatively safe place to take a stance against slavery), but I couldn’t imagine doing 4; and that wouldn’t be because of any respect for the laws of a white supremecist slave nation, but due to fear of consequences. I would go with 4 if I was scared of the repercussions. I don’t know how Vermont felt about enforcing fugitive slave laws in the mid 19th Century; if there would be any liability for me personally, etc. I would go with 3 because IMO harboring a fugitive is illegal and I think it is wrong to be a party to an illegal act. As I think Socrates said, if I had a problem with the law, I have had all these years to move somewhere else. Now if I was some religious abolitionist country bumkin who knew nothing about the law I might just give him shelter. But I also wouldn’t be me. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/404 "2022-05-19T17:08:01Z")
Some laws are so profoundly immoral that to follow them is morally unacceptable. If you can’t recognize this, then your system is morality is defective. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/405 "2022-05-19T17:09:17Z")
I meant more the (3) or (4) response. That’s defensible from a Kantian perspective, but Kant, taken to extremes, is evil. Under that framework, you’d report Jews to Nazis or escaped slaves to the authorities because that would be the legal requirement, which happens to be Max’s argument. During Kant’s time, it may have been somewhat defensible without modern context, but given the atrocities that have occurred since, totally indefensible now. Following a clearly immoral law is no virtue. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/406 "2022-05-19T17:09:46Z")
And if you’re putting someone else’s life over your discomfort with following the law, that’s kinda screwed up too. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/407 "2022-05-19T17:09:57Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I would go with 3 because IMO harboring a fugitive is illegal and I think it is wrong to be a party to an illegal act. As I think Socrates said, if I had a problem with the law, I have had all these years to move somewhere else So the law is the arbiter of all morality? If you were living in Nazi Germany would you turn yourself in because it would be wrong for you (half Jewish IIRC) to break the Nazi law? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/408 "2022-05-19T17:10:32Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Makes one wish there was a word for when you criticize an entire race as if everyone that was a member of said ‘’’’‘race’’’’’ was exactly the same. I get your point, but there’s other circumstances apart from a single judgment. Someone who’s robbed by a member of a different race is likely to think all members of that race are thieves. Are they racist when they complain about being robbed? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/409 "2022-05-19T17:11:28Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If you were living in Nazi Germany would you turn yourself in because it would be wrong for you (half Jewish IIRC) to break the Nazi law? If I were in Nazi Germany and had the fortitude I would turn traitor and flee, or join a resistance movement, I don’t know. I won’t assume I am that strong of a person. But I wouldn’t necessarily blame a German citizen who would choose 3 or 4. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/410 "2022-05-19T17:11:42Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Someone who’s robbed by a member of a different race is likely to think all members of that race are thieves Are they? I’ve had bad interactions with people of every race, but I don’t let those interactions color my perception of all other people of those races. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/411 "2022-05-19T17:11:45Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Someone who’s robbed by a member of a different race is likely to think all members of that race are thieves. That would be racism. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Are they racist when they complain about being robbed? Only if they make it a point that it was a member of a particular race. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/412 "2022-05-19T17:12:05Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > > > Makes one wish there was a word for when you criticize an entire race as if everyone that was a member of said ‘’’’‘race’’’’’ was exactly the same.⁢ > > I get your point, but there’s other circumstances apart from a single judgment. Someone who’s robbed by a member of a different race is likely to think all members of that race are thieves. Are they racist when they complain about being robbed?⁢ Depends. Do they complain about an individual robbing them, or about how race X are all robbers? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/413 "2022-05-19T17:12:41Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If I were in Nazi Germany and had the fortitude I would turn traitor and flee. Breakin the law, breakin the law. And, of course, when you are sheltering in the basement avoiding patrols, you would perfectly understand why and agree with the german who discovers you in his house calling them down on you, right? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/414 "2022-05-19T17:12:57Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Are they racist when they complain about being robbed? Kind of, yes. If they complain about a \< insert race here \> person robbing them instead of complaining just about being robbed, e.g. “I just got robbed, that sucks” is not racist, “It’s just like some Swedish oaf to rob a fellow” is. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/415 "2022-05-19T17:13:45Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > If I were in Nazi Germany and had the fortitude I would turn traitor and flee. So why is it OK for you to do that under the hateful Nazi regime, but it is not OK for a slave to do that under the hateful Antebellum regime? Would you advise any German citizens who come across you trying to escape to turn you in to the proper authorities? If not, why would you advise these Germans to behave so differently than you yourself would in 1800s US? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/416 "2022-05-19T17:13:49Z")
That’s actually a misreading of Kant’s famous “would I lie to a murderer searching for my brother” argument. This person explains it better than I can, but basically people have cherry picked one somewhat bad argument Kant made at one point in his life and ignore the fact he had a larger body of work exploring the concept in different ways (for example he held a lecture on ethical lying at one point): [Kant, lying to a murderer, and bad philosophy – The Metaphilosophy Blog](https://metaphilosophyblog.com/2020/08/01/kant-lying-to-a-murderer-and-bad-philsophy/) ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/417 "2022-05-19T17:15:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That’s actually a misreading of Kant’s famous “would I lie to a murderer searching for my brother” argument. Sort of, but also not. What if the murderer is a legal agent of the State? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/418 "2022-05-19T17:17:15Z")
All the talk about the law here may distract us from the fact that the original subject was his opinion about American History only being white American history. That has nothing at all to do with the law, so he can’t use his “but the law says” argument for that one. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/419 "2022-05-19T17:17:22Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I take a very narrow legal reading of the constitution. My read of the constitution would undo virtually the entire civil rights movement. No federal right to interracial marriage. No federal right to same sex marriage. No federal right to sodomy with a consenting adult in your home. No federal right to contraception. In the minds of most people, if I were a judge ruling, I would be considered racist/bigoted/etc. Because the _impact_ of my opinions would harm minorities, it is undeniable. So, you would “undo” all the laws protecting legal rights in a nation predicated on the principle that, “all men are created equal”? You don’t have a “narrow read” of the Constitution, you have absolutely no understanding of it. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/420 "2022-05-19T17:20:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > So why is it OK for you to do that under the hateful Nazi regime, but it is not OK for a slave to do that under the hateful Antebellum regime? The social compact falls apart when I’m declared a non-person due to no fault of my own. It’s okay for a slave to flee under a hateful Antebellum regime - I won’t blame him. But for me to break the compact to help the runaway slave, or for the German citizen to break his or her compact to help the Jew, is a different matter. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=22)