# Pitting Max\_S **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074 "2022-02-08T00:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/701 "2022-05-23T22:39:56Z")
The idea that it is generally moral to break the law just because _you_ find it wrong conflicts with the principles of democracy and ordered society. (This is the individual’s obligation under the social compact.) So the burden there, for a private individual, is unconscionable acts which you couldn’t bring yourself to commit unless under duress. Public officials are entrusted with power for the specific purpose of upholding the law, and in pursuit of that goal they are assigned more responsibilities than private individuals. It must be granted that in a democratic society the law is the embodiment of the public will; it is the same instrument from which officials draw their power and authority. In matters of conscience I may excuse a public official who resigns or recuses, but the official who violates the law commits an abuse of office. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/702 "2022-05-23T22:51:02Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The implication is that they go through the justice system, as opposed to me being the one to personally reduce the individual to slavery. It’s a distinction of process rather than consequence (although possibly it could lead to a different result). > [@Max\_S](#): > > {…} or for that sake, a cow that jumped my fence. About that cow? Is there some implication that an escaped and then captured cow will go through the justice system? Does the cow have some hope that there will be a legal proceeding that will give it its freedom? Do you fucking understand that the cow and the slave have almost exactly the same claim to not be owned, that is, none? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/703 "2022-05-23T23:00:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Is there some implication that an escaped and then captured cow will go through the justice system? I was thinking it might be held for few couple days to see if anyone claimed it. Otherwise, finders keepers. In the case of the Black man, who will claim to be a freeman, I’m thinking if he doesn’t match a claimant’s description to a judge’s satisfaction, he gets released. I, the Vermont farmer, certainly couldn’t own him because slavery is illegal in Vermont. If released, the judge gets paid less, if I recall correctly. ETA: [Then Again: Fighting back against federal government - VTDigger](https://vtdigger.org/2016/11/13/then-again-fighting-back-against-federal-government/) > In reality, given the public’s sympathies, any alleged runaway brought before a Vermont judge or jury had a good chance of being freed. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/704 "2022-05-23T23:06:05Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > {…} I, the Vermont farmer, certainly couldn’t own him because slavery is illegal in Vermont. {…} Daaammmnnn, it’s like you want to be sucked under by the quicksand… I mean, by that, it’s good that slavery is illegal in Vermont 'cause, apparently, that’d be the actual thing that stops you from being a slave owner. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/705 "2022-05-23T23:08:06Z")
I have no interest in owning slaves and I really do think the practice is wrong. However, > [@Max\_S](#): > > […] it follows from applying the hypothetical […] > > […] if I asked you, if you were a slave owner would you release all of your slaves at the first opportunity? And the answer must necessarily be no, no matter how much you actually loathe slavery today. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/706 "2022-05-23T23:21:59Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > The idea that it is generally moral to break the law just because _you_ find it wrong conflicts with the principles of democracy and ordered society I disagree. But that’s arguable. > [@Max\_S](#): > > In matters of conscience I may excuse a public official who resigns or recuses, but the official who violates the law commits an abuse of office. And that’s much more reasonable. But in the hypothetical, you weren’t a police officer, you were a farmer. > [@Max\_S](#): > > And a reasonable farmer, sheriff, judge, or U.S. Marshall would have…? A reasonable farmer who abhorred slavery would not hand the runaway off to a sheriff who actually has a duty to return the man to slavery. The sheriff or US Marshall is in a much more difficult situation. Judges are often allowed some exercise of judgement, but may also feel their hands are tied. I’m not certain of the details of Vermont law at the time. That’s WHY the farmer can’t hand the man over to the authorities. Because the authorities have much less latitude in their choices. They are bound by their office, and also by the public nature of their choices. Whereas the farmer has no office, and can almost certainly rely on possible deniability in the unlikely chance he is caught harboring a fugitive slave. > [@Max\_S](#): > > if I asked you, if you were a slave owner would you release all of your slaves at the first opportunity? Today? If i discovered I’d just inherited some slaves? I would hire a lawyer to attempt to free them in a way that let them stay free. That might take a little longer than just declaring them free, but it seems like the wise thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/707 "2022-05-23T23:28:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > A reasonable farmer who abhorred slavery would not hand the runaway off to a sheriff who actually has a duty to return the man to slavery. […] Whereas the farmer has no office, and can almost certainly rely on possible deniability in the unlikely chance he is caught harboring a fugitive slave. Unless he can’t rely on plausible deniability, for example if facing a mob, which was the example I used in this post: > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > As they have both the law and the threat of force on their side, I have to consider whether I should violate the law and risk self harm or legal peril, or to comply with the law and turn the fugitive over to the authorities. In this situation I could see myself deciding I don’t owe it to this runaway slave to put myself at such a risk, and turn him in. And similar to what I had in mind originally, for this post: > > [@Max\_S](#): > > > > I would go with 4 if I was scared of the repercussions. I don’t know how Vermont felt about enforcing fugitive slave laws in the mid 19th Century; if there would be any liability for me personally, etc. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > If i discovered I’d just inherited some slaves? I admit I hadn’t thought about suddenly inheriting slaves. My point was that if you are asked to put yourself in the shoes of a nineteenth century slaveowner, except maybe some corner cases, you have to imagine a version of you that supports slavery. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/708 "2022-05-23T23:32:03Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > {…} As they have both the law and the threat of force on their side, I have to consider whether I should violate the law and risk self harm or legal peril, or to comply with the law and turn the fugitive over to the authorities. {…} To be fair, this sounds much better in German. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/709 "2022-05-23T23:34:24Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Unless he can’t rely on plausible deniability, for example if facing a mob, which was the example I used in this post: That’s why the question was based on Vermont. Anyway, that’s just an expression of cowardice, not of morality. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/710 "2022-05-23T23:39:07Z")
I don’t see how it can be moral cowardice if I come to the conclusion that it is the right decision. Sitting here now I’m not _actually_ under duress and I think it is or could be the right decision. > [@Max\_S](#): > > In this situation I could see myself deciding I don’t owe it to this runaway slave to put myself at such a risk, and turn him in. See also [post #657](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/657), [post #659](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/659), [post #663](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/663), etc. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/711 "2022-05-23T23:42:33Z")
Yes, that’s an expression of cowardice. I think many people, maybe most, are cowards when stakes are high. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/712 "2022-05-23T23:44:18Z")
Well, you are free to think of me as a coward. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/713 "2022-05-23T23:46:38Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > I don’t see how it can be moral cowardice if I come to the conclusion that it is the right decision. Sitting here now I’m not _actually_ under duress and I think it is or could be the right decision. Now I’m wondering. It’s not Vermont anymore. You’re in Gainesville, Texas. It’s the fall of 1862 and they just held a [mass hanging (on orders of a kangaroo court) of alleged Union sympathizers and presumed abolitionists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hanging_at_Gainesville). A slave is in your barn. Slavery is not only legal, but you might actually be hanged yourself for failing to turn that man over to a slave patrol. Do you turn the man in? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/714 "2022-05-23T23:48:58Z")
Almost certainly. If I’m not already fighting against the confederates by then all likeliness is that I would be willing to turn over a slave. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/715 "2022-05-23T23:49:58Z")
Well now, that’s a question. Would you be fighting the Confederates? In clear violation of state law and under penalty of death? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/716 "2022-05-23T23:53:33Z")
As I wrote above, #443, if I find a society and its laws so profoundly immoral that following its laws is morally unacceptable, then it is morally unacceptable to remain a part of that society. When push comes to shove I may turn out to be a coward (as I understand the word) by not following through with what I think is right. But with my modern principles, I shouldn’t be loyal to the Confederate States. Notwithstanding their right to secession, which I do not recognize from a legal point of view. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/717 "2022-05-23T23:54:48Z")
Remember people, slavery is not morally reprehensible enough for him, but you motherfuckers are continuing to engage him in a civil debate! ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/718 "2022-05-23T23:55:18Z")
“And risk self harm?” I think he’s already established that he’s both a moral and a physical coward. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/719 "2022-05-23T23:57:29Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > As I wrote above, #443, if I find a society and its laws so profoundly immoral that following its laws is morally unacceptable, then it is morally unacceptable to remain a part of that society. So, if you had the choice between living in Texas or Vermont from 1858-1862, where would you choose to live? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2022, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/720 "2022-05-23T23:59:44Z")
Presumably Vermont? I mean there were a whole host of other human rights violations in both states, from a modern perspective. ~Max [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=37)