# Pitting Max\_S **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 8, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074 "2022-02-08T00:26:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/841 "2022-11-03T17:08:55Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > If you decided not to take drugs because you believe you have a societal responsibility to not to engage in activities that don’t increase the productivity of or otherwise enrich your society, that would be a moral decision, but if that’s your reasoning it would follow that it is immoral for any member of your society to take drugs. > > […] But if the apocalypse comes tomorrow, and you and your neighbors must band together to eke out a hardscrabble survival, and if even one neighbor fails to contribute fully then you’ll all die….then slacking off to smoke weed might become an immoral decision. So it isn’t absolute, but it still isn’t a case of “this behavior is immoral for thee but not for me”. There’s no need to resort to such extremes. In judging others, I am agitated with irresponsable individuals who neglect their parental duties in pursuit of a recreational high. I have sympathy for addiction, depression, and pain, but morally speaking these aren’t sufficient excuses. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/842 "2022-11-03T18:23:18Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Those certainly aren’t grave moral decisions, but they are decisions and all decisions have moral value. If all decisions have moral value to you, then the label is meaningless and redundant. I disagree though. I see no moral value in choosing between chocolate or vanilla if I’m getting a milkshake. Morality should actually mean something and not just be arbitrarily applied to everything. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/843 "2022-11-03T22:53:22Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I see no moral value in choosing between chocolate or vanilla if I’m getting a milkshake. Morally speaking, you [should](https://foodispower.org/human-labor-slavery/slavery-chocolate/) avoid [both](http://theguardian.com/global-development/2016/dec/08/madagascar-152m-vanilla-industry-soured-child-labour-poverty). As far as I know, artificial flavoring can be enjoyed with a clear conscience. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2022, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/844 "2022-11-03T23:19:38Z")
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/845 "2022-11-04T00:06:52Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I disagree though. I see no moral value in choosing between chocolate or vanilla if I’m getting a milkshake But the cocoa beans were grown and harvested by child workers! Enjoy your bloodshake, I’ll be sticking with vanilla - the only moral option! _This message was brought to you by the Association of Vanilla Growers_ ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/846 "2022-11-04T00:09:07Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Morally speaking, you [should](https://foodispower.org/human-labor-slavery/slavery-chocolate/) avoid [both](http://theguardian.com/global-development/2016/dec/08/madagascar-152m-vanilla-industry-soured-child-labour-poverty). As far as I know, artificial flavoring can be enjoyed with a clear conscience. I see that I was ninja’d by the Artificial Flavoring lobby! ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/847 "2022-11-04T00:21:23Z")
This is truth. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/848 "2022-11-04T00:24:35Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > I disagree though. I see no moral value in choosing between chocolate or vanilla if I’m getting a milkshake. The thing about Max is I can imagine him delivering his above screed word-for-word to a clearly uncomfortable waitress as she’s just trying to finish getting his order so she can serve other customers. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/849 "2022-11-04T00:29:59Z")
“Sir, this is a Shoney’s.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/850 "2022-11-04T01:15:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > bloodshake Why is that never an option? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/851 "2022-11-04T01:54:31Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > If all decisions have moral value to you, then the label is meaningless and redundant. A moral system (normative ethics) purports to answer the question, “How should I act?” It applies to all decisions by definition. If you are thinking of a moral system that _doesn’t_ apply to all decisions, we are talking about two different topics. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/852 "2022-11-04T05:58:16Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > > [@Atamasama](#): > > > > If all decisions have moral value to you, then the label is meaningless and redundant. ⁢ > > A moral system (normative ethics) purports to answer the question, “How should I act?” It applies to all decisions by definition. That doesn’t follow at all. There very often isn’t a single answer to that question. And then you now have to make a decision between two things that are morally equivalent. You thus can’t use morality to decide. And this isn’t merely an intellectual exercise. This sort of thinking is exactly what leads to scrupulosity. People get paralyzed not knowing what the morally correct option is. Or they beat themselves up because they inevitably don’t choose the most moral option. Not every decision is a moral one. There’s a reason why the term amoral exists, and doesn’t mean immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/853 "2022-11-04T16:09:03Z")
With all due respect, neutral is a moral value. When making a decision between two alternatives of equal moral value, the decision is morally neutral. Choosing one flavor of ice cream over another _based on my greater desire_ for the one flavor is positive, not neutral, because I personally recognize a duty to satisfy desires. All other things equal, it is better for me to choose the flavor I like more. Neutral does _not_ mean amoral. Amoral means disregard for morality. My opinion of whether something is legally valid or not is amoral. That doesn’t mean I think all laws have equal moral value, it means I think legal validity of law is independent of moral value. We should strive to make laws reflect morality but sometimes that doesn’t work out. (See Nazi thread, linked earlier.) Contrary to **Johanna** ’s implication, I don’t identify law with morality itself. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/854 "2022-11-04T16:58:44Z")
We have literally hundreds of posts by you on this forum defending the vilest of human behavior and institutions on the basis that they were legal. People are being way too kind to your deplorable ass. Go fuck yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/855 "2022-11-04T18:31:15Z")
Max should take a Turing test. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/856 "2022-11-04T18:46:10Z")
Two equally moral choices? Easy to solve. Carry a coin. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/857 "2022-11-04T18:47:50Z")
You are probably literally shaking, but noone is forcing you to read or engage. Demonstrate agency. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/858 "2022-11-04T18:50:03Z")
Max, I think you are a fine poster, but when you are defended by this guy, you may want to sit down and think some things over. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/859 "2022-11-04T18:51:29Z")
Pipe down, Octo. The comment was meant for Max. Anyway, Max, I was raised with the idea that who you associate with kind of defines who you are. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074/860 "2022-11-04T18:51:50Z")
That’s a logical fallacy! Tut tut! I’ll leave it to you while between making a dank beto poster and a business plan for Elon Musk to figure out which one. > [@JohnT](#): > > Pipe down, Octo. ☹ I can’t stay mad at you. Where’s the 8 armed hug emoji? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-max-s/959074.md?page=44)