# Pitting of religious extremists . . . today it's the Hasidic Jews. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 10, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532 "2012-05-10T18:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/1 "2012-05-10T18:10:05Z")
Today the New York Times ran an extensive story about how ultra-orthodox Jews shun people in their own community who report child sex abuse. [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/nyregion/ultra-orthodox-jews-shun-their-own-for-reporting-child-sexual-abuse.html?exprod=myyahoo](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/nyregion/ultra-orthodox-jews-shun-their-own-for-reporting-child-sexual-abuse.html?exprod=myyahoo) This is really sickening. Here are just the opening paragraphs: > [@](#): > > The first shock came when Mordechai Jungreis learned that his mentally disabled teenage son was being molested in a Jewish ritual bathhouse in Brooklyn. The second came after Mr. Jungreis complained, and the man accused of the abuse was arrested. > > Old friends started walking stonily past him and his family on the streets of Williamsburg. Their landlord kicked them out of their apartment. Anonymous messages filled their answering machine, cursing Mr. Jungreis for turning in a fellow Jew. And, he said, the mother of a child in a wheelchair confronted Mr. Jungreis’s mother-in-law, saying the same man had molested her son, and she “did not report this crime, so why did your son-in-law have to?” This is the same mentality that led to the sex abuse scandal of the Catholic bishops. It’s these extreme insular religious views that cause more problems than they solve. I hope the religious extremists that do evil and hide behind their religion all burn in hell together. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/2 "2012-05-10T18:29:35Z")
Hmmmm, people with rigid belief systems behaving rigidly. Color me saddened but unsurprised. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/3 "2012-05-10T18:32:01Z")
I read that article on the commuter train this morning and thought, “this makes me feel like being Recreationally Outraged on the Dope!” So here I am. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/4 "2012-05-10T18:42:17Z")
I got such a strange sense of deja vu when reading the OP that I had to check the date. Where did I hear this before? Was it a Law & Order episode by any chance? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/5 "2012-05-10T18:46:42Z")
Disgusting behavior. Any Hasidic sect that’s doing this sort of thing needs to have its collective head forcibly pulled out of its collective ass. Unfortunately, Hasidic sects are generally so devoted to their Rebbes-who-can-do-no-wrong that even condemnation by other Orthodox Jewish groups might not make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/6 "2012-05-10T18:46:50Z")
Yikes. > [@](#): > > The small cadre of ultra-Orthodox Jews who have tried to call attention to the community’s lack of support for sexual abuse victims have often been targeted with the same forms of intimidation as the victims themselves. > > Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg of Williamsburg, for example, has been shunned by communal authorities because he maintains a telephone number that features his impassioned lectures in Yiddish, Hebrew and English imploring victims to call 911 and accusing rabbis of silencing cases. He also shows up at court hearings and provides victims’ families with advice. His call-in line gets nearly 3,000 listeners a day. > > In 2008, fliers were posted around Williamsburg denouncing him. One depicted a coiled snake, with Mr. Rosenberg’s face superimposed on its head. “Nuchem Snake Rosenberg: Leave Tainted One!” it said in Hebrew. The local Satmar Hasidic authorities banned him from their synagogues, and a wider group of 32 prominent ultra-Orthodox rabbis and religious judges signed an order, published in a community newspaper, formally ostracizing him. > > “The public must beware, and stay away from him, and push him out of our camp, not speak to him, and even more, not to honor him or support him, and not allow him to set foot in any synagogue until he returns from his evil ways,” the order said in Hebrew. > > “They had small children coming to my house and spitting on me and on my children and wife,” Rabbi Rosenberg, 61, said in an interview. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/7 "2012-05-10T18:52:58Z")
I’m Jewish, but not Hasidic or even Orthodox. If I knew of someone in my synagogue who was molesting children, I’d call the authorities in a New York minute. I would hope that anyone else in my synagogue who knew of such a thing would do the same. I’d call them on Shabbat, if that was when I found out about it. I wouldn’t call the rabbi first before I called the authorities. If I talked to him about it later, and he said anything other than some variant of “you did the right thing,” I’d be looking for a new synagogue. If I were cooperating with the authorities on a child molestation case, and someone from my synagogue told me to stop doing that, I’d also be looking for a new synagogue. They say they consider publicly airing allegations against fellow Jews to be a chillul Hashem, or desecration of God’s name. I think that knowing about a child molester and _not_ turning them in to the authorities because they’re a member of your religion is a chillul Hashem. This _is_ going to make some people think badly of Judaism. I won’t be shocked if such sentiments come up in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/8 "2012-05-10T19:02:47Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > This _is_ going to make some people think badly of Judaism. I won’t be shocked if such sentiments come up in this thread. Hopefully the only thing that comes up will be disgust with religious extremists - of any religion. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/9 "2012-05-10T19:27:22Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > This _is_ going to make some people think badly of Judaism. No, it won’t. Bigotry would make people think badly about Judaism as a group due to the actions of a few. But then again, any negative actions by Jews (or blacks, or hispanics, or gays, or…) would do the same. Bigotry is a cognitive malfunction. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/10 "2012-05-10T19:45:46Z")
It certainly makes me think poorly of Jews who think that their religious rules require that they shield child molesters and the religious leaders and judges who promote that rule. If those religious leaders claim that they have to follow this rule in order not to make Judaism look bad, then I think it’s perfectly reasonable to point out that in the “Making Judaism Look Bad” Olympics, it’s not the child molesters who are taking home the gold. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/11 "2012-05-10T19:49:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No, it won’t. Bigotry would make people think badly about Judaism as a group due to the actions of a few. But then again, any negative actions by Jews (or blacks, or hispanics, or gays, or…) would do the same. Bigotry is a cognitive malfunction. Well, here, it might not just be bigotry. There are laws in Judaism against being an informer. This dates to times when it was illegal to practice Judaism or be Jewish. Of course it would be a bad thing to turn your Marrano neighbor in to the authorities for lighting Shabbat candles, or to tell the Nazis about the Jewish family hiding in the neighbor’s attic. Some of us don’t think these laws should apply to things like child molestation, where someone else is being harmed. Some Jews, though, think that law applies and means you shouldn’t turn in fellow Jews, even if they are sinful and wicked. I can see the need for that argument- otherwise, it might be okay to turn your neighbors over to the Inquisition for being Marranos if you were upset at them over something else. I don’t agree with the Hasidim here, and I think sheltering child molesters for any reason is an absolutely disgusting thing to do, almost as bad as molesting a child yourself. But I know why they think they shouldn’t turn in members of their own community to the secular authorities. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/12 "2012-05-10T19:59:39Z")
Anne Neville: > [@](#): > > There are laws in Judaism against being an informer. I am well aware of these laws, and that’s very likely the reason why the Hasidim react the way they do to the guy who reported the problem. However, the point of these laws is so that the problem should be handled within the framework of Jewish law, by a proper Bais Din (Jewish religious court). If said court is just going to ignore the complainant, or worse, participate in the cover-up rather than protect the community from such criminals, the aggrieved party has every right to go to the secular authorities, even according to Halacha. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/13 "2012-05-10T20:41:37Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > Well, here, it might not just be bigotry. There are laws in Judaism against being an informer. But then the issue, for any non-bigot, is “Jews who refrain from protecting the innocent from child molesters due to an outdated moral code? They’re assholes who are effectively complicit in child rape.” Bigots, however, jump to the Fallacy of Composition, and generally then slice it back up with the Fallacy of Division. “You know them Jews, clannish and only looking after their own, willing to even cover up child molestation if another Jew is involved. So you can’t trust any of them people.” Hell, I’ll join you in saying that the Hassidic community in question is most likely chock full of rabid assholes who should be flogged. But their actions reflect on nobody but themselves. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/14 "2012-05-10T21:46:02Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > But then the issue, for any non-bigot, is “Jews who refrain from protecting the innocent from child molesters due to an outdated moral code? They’re assholes who are effectively complicit in child rape.” > > Bigots, however, jump to the Fallacy of Composition, and generally then slice it back up with the Fallacy of Division. “You know them Jews, clannish and only looking after their own, willing to even cover up child molestation if another Jew is involved. So you can’t trust any of them people.” > > Hell, I’ll join you in saying that the Hassidic community in question is most likely chock full of rabid assholes who should be flogged. But their actions reflect on nobody but themselves. Substitute “Catholic priests” for “Jews” in your statement. It’s all the same. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/15 "2012-05-10T23:18:30Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > However, the point of these laws is so that the problem should be handled within the framework of Jewish law, by a proper Bais Din (Jewish religious court). If said court is just going to ignore the complainant, or worse, participate in the cover-up rather than protect the community from such criminals, the aggrieved party has every right to go to the secular authorities, even according to Halacha. How would the Bais Din handle a charge of molestation? What could it do to the offender? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/16 "2012-05-10T23:33:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hell, I’ll join you in saying that the Hassidic community in question is most likely chock full of rabid assholes who should be flogged. But their actions reflect on nobody but themselves. Are there any ultra-Orthodox communities that _aren’t_ chock full of rabid assholes? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2012, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/17 "2012-05-10T23:34:14Z")
Ha see dem, but Ha don’t believe dem! ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/18 "2012-05-11T01:25:42Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Are there any ultra-Orthodox communities that _aren’t_ chock full of rabid assholes? And here I thought they were just chock full o’ nuts! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/19 "2012-05-11T01:30:56Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Bigotry would make people think badly about Judaism as a group due to the actions of a few. I guess my Mom was a bigot. She thought Hasidic Jews were unclean - as in, not bathing sufficiently. And she was Jewish. Go figure.\* Ostracizing people for reporting pedophiles, though, is beyond the pale, if you catches my drift. \*I always thought that of all the things I could have done to upset my mother - becoming a Moonie, joining the Weather Underground, coming out as gay, etc. - the absolute worst thing in her eyes would have been my converting to ultra-Orthodox Judaism. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/20 "2012-05-11T01:36:29Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > \*I always thought that of all the things I could have done to upset my mother - becoming a Moonie, joining the Weather Underground, coming out as gay, etc. - the absolute worst thing in her eyes would have been my converting to ultra-Orthodox Judaism. 🙂 Now wait a minute. If your Mother was Jewish, so are you. So you wouldn’t have to convert, you’d just act like the UC folks. 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532.md?page=2)