# Pitting of religious extremists . . . today it's the Hasidic Jews. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 10, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532 "2012-05-10T18:10:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/21 "2012-05-11T01:37:14Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Ostracizing people for reporting pedophiles, though, is beyond the pale, if you catches my drift. So is assaulting women and children for not conforming to their standard of modesty, portraying themselves as Holocaust victims when people are understandably miffed about this, and just generally being a parasite that drinks money and shits bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/22 "2012-05-11T01:44:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > portraying themselves as Holocaust victims when people are understandably miffed about this, Please elaborate. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/23 "2012-05-11T01:45:49Z")
> [@R.P.McMurphy](#): > > Substitute “Catholic priests” for “Jews” in your statement. It’s all the same. Or Hollywood bigwigs. Or the family next door. Childhood sex abuse is so commonplace in our society that it may be impossible to find a family/profession/religion where some form of it hasn’t happened. The gift that keeps on giving. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/24 "2012-05-11T01:53:40Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Please elaborate. > Thanks. [Here you go.](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/03/world/meast/israel-religious-right/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/25 "2012-05-11T01:54:34Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Childhood sex abuse is so commonplace in our society Surely not. Do you have any numbers on that? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/26 "2012-05-11T02:08:22Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > However, the point of these laws is so that the problem should be handled within the framework of Jewish law, by a proper Bais Din (Jewish religious court). If said court is just going to ignore the complainant, or worse, participate in the cover-up rather than protect the community from such criminals, the aggrieved party has every right to go to the secular authorities, even according to Halacha. True. But ISTM one problem here, which parallels one of the issues with the Catholic priests, is that too many of those involved misunderstand that to mean the case **must only** – not “should” but “must only” – be handled within the framework of Bais Din if it involves the Jewish community, or Canon Law if it involves someone in the holy orders, and that if that authority blows it off, then well, too bad. “We should police ourselves” becomes “nobody else must be allowed to police us”. And far too many of those in positions of authority are only too happy to encourage that misconception (it increases their power). And also… > [@](#): > > And, he said, the mother of a child in a wheelchair confronted Mr. Jungreis’s mother-in-law, saying the same man had molested her son, and she “did not report this crime, so why did your son-in-law have to?” The person who stands up to the wrongdoing, will upset those who have to look at themselves in the mirror and know _they_ didn’t; that his very presence and voice makes their own guilt all the more harshly contrasted. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/27 "2012-05-11T02:17:49Z")
spooje: > [@](#): > > How would the Bais Din handle a charge of molestation? What could it do to the offender? They could fine him money, and/or they could pronounce a communal ban on him - e.g., no honors in the synagogue. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/28 "2012-05-11T02:19:23Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Surely not. > Do you have any numbers on that? [There are estimates that 15-25% of North American women and 5-15% of North American men were sexually abused as children.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse) If those estimates are true (and it’s a tricky thing to estimate, given the shame and other issues around reporting child sexual abuse), there’s lots of sexual abuse of children going on. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/29 "2012-05-11T02:20:59Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > [There are estimates that 15-25% of North American women and 5-15% of North American men were sexually abused as children.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse) If those estimates are true (and it’s a tricky thing to estimate, given the shame and other issues around reporting child sexual abuse), there’s lots of sexual abuse of children going on. Got anything besides Wikipedia and someone’s pet peeve? Thanks again. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/30 "2012-05-11T02:23:18Z")
> [@Gruman](#): > > —Quote (Originally by carnivorousplant)— > Please elaborate. > Thanks. > —End Quote— > Here you go. ([http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/03/world/meast/israel-religious-right/index.html](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/01/03/world/meast/israel-religious-right/index.html)) > > * * * Gruman, I think you’re right up there with “A Black person robbed a liquor store, so all Black people rob liquor stores.” ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/31 "2012-05-11T02:36:12Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > How would the Bais Din handle a charge of molestation? What could it do to the offender? > [@cmkeller](#): > > They could fine him money, and/or they could pronounce a communal ban on him - e.g., no honors in the synagogue. Those two penalties do not seem to me to be sufficient to dissuade him from harming other children. Could they find his offense sufficiently egregious to take their evidence to the secular authorities? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/32 "2012-05-11T02:40:56Z")
One of the Rabbis at my conversion Bet Din (sp) was about seven feet tall and four feet across at the shoulders. If a guy wouldn’t give his wife a religious divorce, he went to talk to him. I would imagine he had no problem dealing with child molesters. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/33 "2012-05-11T03:43:03Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > How would the Bais Din handle a charge of molestation? What could it do to the offender? > [@cmkeller](#): > > spooje: > > They could fine him money, and/or they could pronounce a communal ban on him - e.g., no honors in the synagogue. Is there any serious debate within the Orthodox community on the question of whether this is enough? Thank you for being here and for your willingness to provide knowledgeable information on the view from the Orthodox perspective, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/34 "2012-05-11T04:16:31Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Got anything besides Wikipedia and someone’s pet peeve? > Thanks again. 🙂 You could try opening the Wikipedia article and following the citation links: > [@](#): > > ^ a b c d e Julia Whealin, Ph.D. (2007-05-22). “Child Sexual Abuse”. National Center for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, US Department of Veterans Affairs. > ^ a b Finkelhor D (1994). “Current information on the scope and nature of child sexual abuse”. The Future of Children 4 (2): 31–53. doi:10.2307/1602522. JSTOR 1602522. PMID 7804768. > ^ a b Gorey KM, Leslie DR (April 1997). “The prevalence of child sexual abuse: integrative review adjustment for potential response and measurement biases”. Child Abuse & Neglect 21 (4): 391–8. doi:10.1016/S0145-2134(96)00180-9. PMID 9134267. There are others. _Lots of them._ Look for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/35 "2012-05-11T04:39:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One of the Rabbis at my conversion Bet Din (sp) was about seven feet tall and four feet across at the shoulders. If a guy wouldn’t give his wife a religious divorce, he went to talk to him. I would imagine he had no problem dealing with child molesters. So which one was he: a first round NFL pick, or a second? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/36 "2012-05-11T20:40:09Z")
In regards to the question of whether the practice of child sexual abuse is high in Western countries I think Wiki does give a pretty broad overview. A person needs to remember that the term encompasses a spectrum of behaviors and attitudes and that people who haven’t received some education on the issue may be so acclimated to the casual sexualization of children that they may fail to see it. I no longer work in the people-helping industry but in the 1980s the figure I was given was that some type of incest occurs in one in four households. That seemed alarmingly high. My observations from my clientele were that it occurred in conjunction with people being treated for substance abuse, mental illness, eating disorders, the whole gamut of problematic behaviors. It wasn’t uncommon to go unrecognized as sexual abuse for some of the clients until they had been educated. (Which, of course, raises some serious questions I won’t debate here.) With the Enlightenment attitudes and behaviors toward sexuality in regards to adults and children changed. I do understand that many of them are being rethought. It may shock you to know that more than once I have heard from a young woman something on the order of “I thought all families did that.” And as Ann mentioned shame continues to play a role in the difficulty of determining exact figures. I’m surprised that anyone would question it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/37 "2012-05-11T20:53:50Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > You could try opening the Wikipedia article and following the citation links Those links, with actual quotes from them, should be cited then if they actually back up the claims. Wikipedia articles are chock full of claims, with citations, that when tracked down are either not supported or are outright contradicted by their linked citations. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/38 "2012-05-11T23:33:50Z")
Punoqllads: > [@](#): > > Those two penalties do not seem to me to be sufficient to dissuade him from harming other children. Well, in Jewish law, sexual assault is a form of…assault. The penalties for breaking someone’s arm are monetary, and the penalties for rape are monetary. In more modern times, we have come to think of “sexual” as being a separate category of crime, but that’s not based in the Torah. Please understand: it doesn’t go unpunished, it’s just that it’s not punished differently (in principle) from violating people’s bodies through non-sexual violence. > [@](#): > > Could they find his offense sufficiently egregious to take their evidence to the secular authorities? I’m certain there must be some circumstances which allow a Bais Din to turn an offender over to secular authorities, but I believe that power is limited to people who refuse to abide by the Bais Din’s orders, and even then, there are conditions that must be fulfilled. I am not an expert in these matters. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/39 "2012-05-12T00:28:48Z")
About to light candles here. Shabbot shalom, CMKeller. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532/40 "2012-05-12T01:13:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Those links, with actual quotes from them, should be cited then if they actually back up the claims. Wikipedia articles are chock full of claims, with citations, that when tracked down are either not supported or are outright contradicted by their linked citations. No, because I am not the person challenging the claim. A citation was given, It is up to you to determine the veracity of that citation, not me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-of-religious-extremists-today-its-the-hasidic-jews/621532.md?page=3)