# Pitting poker players who hate bad poker players **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578 "2005-11-24T13:07:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/61 "2005-11-28T10:19:53Z")
\*\*Bryan Ekers], it’s obvious that somewhere, someone’s shed is missing a tool. You have agreed with everything that everyone has said about poker ethics but then refuse to call it ethics because you’re as stubborn as the Herpies sore you must resemble in some way. Then you say that the difference between ethics and (ethical?) guidelines that ethics are written - as if secular humanists don’t have ethics because they don’t have some inspired texts to guide them. One person already called you a dick; how many votes do you need before you realize it? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/62 "2005-11-28T15:44:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > **Brian** , i’m suprised that you would choose to define “ethics” in a way that is so completely divorced from the reality of the way the word is used by the vast majority of the population. What can I say? I’m a risk-taker. Besides, there are counter-examples of “generally accepted uses” which are blatantly incorrect. I find “sportsmanship” and “etiquette” adequately cover poker behaviour, while “ethics” is overstatement. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/63 "2005-11-28T15:51:38Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > You have agreed with everything that everyone has said about poker ethics but then refuse to call it ethics It’s not as universal as you claim, and again you’re assuming that which you’re trying to prove. > [@](#): > > Then you say that the difference between ethics and (ethical?) guidelines that ethics are written That’s not all of what I wrote, but if it’s all that you can comprehend, I understand. There, there. There, there. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/64 "2005-11-28T18:51:41Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What can I say? I’m a risk-taker. You misspelled “moron.” ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/65 "2005-11-28T19:28:01Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What can I say? I’m a risk-taker. Besides, there are counter-examples of “generally accepted uses” which are blatantly incorrect. > > I find “sportsmanship” and “etiquette” adequately cover poker behaviour, while “ethics” is overstatement. Wouldn’t you say that “sportsmanship” and “etiquette” are ethics in and of themselves? I’m genuinely curious, as I don’t see a distinction. They’re codes of conduct deemed acceptable by society. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/66 "2005-11-28T19:39:20Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Ethics are mostly written professional rules designed to keep an organized activity, possibly involving hundreds or thousands of people, from becoming unpleasant. Doctors, lawyers and accountants (for example) are members of professional organizations with standards that all members must meet. In order to maintain the prestige of these organizations, there are imposed rules of behaviour to which all members must adhere or risk expulsion. Actually, this is not entirely true. There is a standardized set of guidelines for all professional tournaments which applies to every player participating. Those rules address as many contingencies as possible, including deliberately slowing down play and discussing hands while the hand is in progress, which is a form of angle shooting. I apologize, I cannot link to anything remotely resembling “gambling” from my work, so no cite… **Sam** , some help? Card Player mag did an extensive couple of articles about the rulings last year. Oh, and angle shooters should be expelled from tournaments. None of this weenie 10 minutes crap. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/67 "2005-11-28T21:47:29Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Wouldn’t you say that “sportsmanship” and “etiquette” are ethics in and of themselves? I’m genuinely curious, as I don’t see a distinction. They’re codes of conduct deemed acceptable by society. When watching a boatload of WSOP on ESPN, I saw Matusow and Shiekhan (Sp?) get into the rules/ettiquette/sportsmanship/ethics when Shiekhan folded two cards that would have flopped him a boat, pounded the table in reaction which inflamed Matusow since he was still live in the pot. Matusow shot back with a “What the fuck?” and got the 10 minute misconduct along with Shiekhan. I was looking for the actual recounting of this hand somewhere, because I don’t have the accounting of the hand and reactions _verbatum_. Then “sportsmanship” ensued. Bad etiquette on Shiekhan’s part, although that may not have been his usual “ethics” WRT tournament poker. If Shiekhan does this at every event, then that is bad ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Carnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carnick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnick)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/68 "2005-11-28T21:48:42Z")
I thought the whole fun of live poker was the psychological element - smack talking, lying, and intimidation. The human interaction is what sets poker apart from a game like roullette. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/69 "2005-11-28T21:53:19Z")
It is part of it. But you’re not allowed to discuss a hand in progress, especially not to the effect of “I hope you can beat my ace…” right before someone in front of you bets. It’s designed to chase people out of pots. If you want them out, make the bet too high. But deliberately talking about your hand or deliberately misrepresenting your hand is not legal in tournament poker. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_The\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Bill\_The\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_The_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/70 "2005-11-28T21:56:01Z")
> [@neuroman](#): > > The poker players who yell at and berate the fish really honk me off. One asshole at the table can kill a profitable game if he’s obnoxious enough. They piss me off too, but for a completely different reason: 90% of the time, people who berate others do so because they suck themselves. Poker isn’t a game of cards, it’s a game of psychology. If you can’t change up your strategies so you can win against (choose one: the fish / loose players / tight players / aggressive players / drunk players), then YOU SUCK. If you’re consistently losing money to idiots who call two raises with T5s, then YOU SUCK. If you can’t win money in the long run from morons who slowplay pre-flop, then YOU SUCK. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/71 "2005-11-28T22:10:18Z")
I have to admit that I’m unfamiliar with much of the poker jargon being used in this thread. I decided to look it up and I found that “slow rolling” was merely taking your time showing a winning hand just to rub everyone’s noses in it. I can’t understand why this would be considered unethical. Play is over, so there’s no way your slow roll is going to change the outcome. Sure, it might be a bit jerkish, but what’s the harm? It is similarly unethical to make a big deal about winning a hand? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/72 "2005-11-28T23:43:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I decided to look it up and I found that “slow rolling” was merely taking your time showing a winning hand just to rub everyone’s noses in it. I can’t understand why this would be considered unethical. Play is over, so there’s no way your slow roll is going to change the outcome. Sure, it might be a bit jerkish, but what’s the harm? “Slow rolling” is probably the ethical equivalent pulling the pigtails fo the girl in front of you in 4th grade. It is rude behavior to be sure and one can argue that rudeness is unethical but sure, it’s the least of problems. Other unethical behavior and tactics have been discussed in this thread above, antics that go beyond rudeness into a realm where you attempt to gain an unfair advantage through an “angle” (hence the term). Slow rolling will still get you kicked in the nuts in many backroom games so it’s not advisable. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/73 "2005-11-29T00:06:01Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > It is part of it. But you’re not allowed to discuss a hand in progress, especially not to the effect of “I hope you can beat my ace…” right before someone in front of you bets. It’s designed to chase people out of pots. If you want them out, make the bet too high. But deliberately talking about your hand or deliberately misrepresenting your hand is not legal in tournament poker. If you are head-to-head against somebody and they ask you what you have, or say “You got a pair?” are you allowed to lie then? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/74 "2005-11-29T00:36:16Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Wouldn’t you say that “sportsmanship” and “etiquette” are ethics in and of themselves? I’m genuinely curious, as I don’t see a distinction. They’re codes of conduct deemed acceptable by society. There is, I find, a spectrum running from “politeness” (rules of interaction among the general public for common situations such as table manners) to “sportsmanship” (rules of interaction among people engaged in a rule-defined pastime) to “ethics” (stricter rules of interaction involving members of a voluntary professional association). Open-table poker qualifies as a pastime. The fact that it can be played for serious money doesn’t elevate it beyond a game and make it into a serious, professional occupation. Of course, the points along that spectrum of any given activity are a matter of opinion. I discussed _tournament_ ethics quite specifically in post #48 of this thread: > [@](#): > > I can imagine someone voluntarily setting up a poker league or association (or even just a specific tournament) whose members agree to conform to an ethical standard, and at that point poker ethics exist _for members of that organization._ The game itself, though remains ethically neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Carnick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carnick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnick)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/75 "2005-11-29T00:38:10Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > It is part of it. But you’re not allowed to discuss a hand in progress, especially not to the effect of “I hope you can beat my ace…” right before someone in front of you bets. It’s designed to chase people out of pots. If you want them out, make the bet too high. But deliberately talking about your hand or deliberately misrepresenting your hand is not legal in tournament poker. In my days of live poker (two years of 1/2 NL - I’m such a manly man), I’ve heard the following spoken in multihanded play: “God these cards suck” “Damnit I missed the flop again” “My kicker isn’t good enough” “I have a good pocket pair” “Oops, maybe I shouldn’t have folded my aces” I thought comments like these were all fair game and pretty harmless. Granted, I’ve never played any serious cash games or tournaments. Can you really get kicked out for silly table talk? I remember once when two guys were heads up. It was at the turn and the action was on Guy A. He turned his cards up for the table to see (a flush draw)and asked the table if he should call Guy B’s bet. The table convinces him to call and he gets his flush on the river. Guy B scolded the dealer for not taking action but took it in stride considering the pot was over $100. Shouldn’t Guy A’s hand be declared dead if he flips it face up, or does that not apply to heads up? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/76 "2005-11-29T00:45:15Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > If you are head-to-head against somebody and they ask you what you have, or say “You got a pair?” are you allowed to lie then? From the [Official WSOP Rules](http://www.harrahs.com/wsop/rules.html): > [@](#): > > 1. Verbally disclosing the contents of your hand or advising a player how to play a hand may result in a penalty So you cannot answer either way with specifics, however you can speak in general terms. My favorite involbed Layne Flack on a WPT event with a big bet on the table and Mike Matusow deliberating on a call: Layne: Ask me what I have. Mike: Okay, what do you have? Layne: You beat. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/77 "2005-11-29T00:49:28Z")
> [@Yeticus Rex](#): > > When watching a boatload of WSOP on ESPN, I saw Matusow and Shiekhan (Sp?) get into the rules/ettiquette/sportsmanship/ethics when Shiekhan folded two cards that would have flopped him a boat, pounded the table in reaction which inflamed Matusow since he was still live in the pot. Matusow shot back with a “What the fuck?” and got the 10 minute misconduct along with Shiekhan. I was looking for the actual recounting of this hand somewhere, because I don’t have the accounting of the hand and reactions _verbatum_. IIRC we never saw Shiekhan’s hole cards so we don’t know exactly what part of the flop he hit, but he definitely slammed the table hard. Matesow said “you need to shut the fuck up,” and Shiekhan started saying something like “What was that Mike? You got something to say to me?” The tournament director correctly gave each player a 10 minute penalty, Shiekhan for the poor conduct and Matesow for the F-bomb. > [@YR](#): > > Bad etiquette on Shiekhan’s part, although that may not have been his usual “ethics” WRT tournament poker. If Shiekhan does this at every event, then that is bad ethics. Of course it was highly edited, but the Matesow incident wasn’t the first at the WSOP where Shiekhan behaved poorly. There was a hand against Tiffany Williamson in which she was taking a long time to make a decision and he called a clock (which is generally frowned upon, although given the amount of time she spent in the tamk I can’t really blame him). He then started behaving poorly toward her (especially after she sucked out on him with a mediocre A7os), including at least once calling a clock within seconds of the action hitting her just to be pissy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/78 "2005-11-29T00:51:46Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > I discussed _tournament_ ethics quite specifically in post #48 of this thread: You really don’t get it. The ethics of poker don’t change just because the fora does, only the punishment. Things that are considered unethical in a WSOP event, for example, might get you a 10-minute penalty (like the case mentioned eariler when involving Matisow & The Shiek). If you do that in a friendly home game, the punishment is awkward stares and a lack of invites back. Do it in some backroom game and you can get your ass kicked. The ethics remain constant, it’s only the punishment that changes. No situational ethics in poker (although to be fair, in some places minor breaches of ettiquette are more tolerable than others.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/79 "2005-11-29T03:03:44Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The ethics of poker don’t change just because the fora does, only the punishment. If context makes the outcome that flexible, I wouldn’t consider it a matter of ethics, which are somewhat more rigid and less forgiving (or they’re useless). I don’t doubt that within a WSOP event, all participants are advised of and must consent to certain behaviours, with penalties for violators up to and including expulsion. In addition to this, some schmo off the street can’t just walk up and say “deal me in.” The WSOP players have formed a voluntary association which has barriers to entry and penalties for violations of accepted, documented standards. That’s a textbook situation for an ethical standard and I have no objections to it whatsoever (as indicated back in post #48). What I find unsupported is the expansion of “ethics” to cover _all_ games of poker, where there are _no_ written standards of behaviour, _no_ standards for penalty or expulsion (one venue’ll give you an awkward stare, another resorts to violence?) and _no_ barriers to entry. Poker didn’t become a game of ethics because some people decided to play it that way. For the generic situation, “sportsmanship” and “etiquette” are adequate. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578/80 "2005-11-29T03:51:58Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > What I find unsupported is the expansion of “ethics” to cover _all_ games of poker, where there are _no_ written standards of behaviour, _no_ standards for penalty or expulsion (one venue’ll give you an awkward stare, another resorts to violence?) and _no_ barriers to entry. Poker didn’t become a game of ethics because some people decided to play it that way. For the generic situation, “sportsmanship” and “etiquette” are adequate. Your criteria here (notions of written standards, penalties, barriers to entry, control over membership, etc.) are all questions of professionalism. While these things might determine whether or not we label something a profession, they should not (and do not, in common usage) determine whether certain behavior falls within the general realm of “ethics.” I guess, by your formulation, that if i find some guy’s wallet on the street, whether or not i choose to give it back to him is not a question of ethics. Nor is my decision about whether to help up someone who has fallen out of a wheelchair. Or return money to a cashier who accidentally gave me too much change. Or to be a vegetarian or a pacifist. Listening to you redefine the term “ethics” is rather surreal, as if someone came onto the boards determined to define an automobile as only something made by General Motors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-poker-players-who-hate-bad-poker-players/332578.md?page=5)