# Pitting Shodan for stubborness **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 5, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915 "2017-05-05T15:22:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/81 "2017-05-11T12:40:31Z")
Secret liberal Illuminati code for “round 'em up!” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/82 "2017-05-11T14:07:09Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > BigT has stated this is his purpose here. The thing about BigT in this regard is that he has mental issues which apparently prevent him from holding a job or having normal RL relationships. He has also stated that this board is his “life”. So I suspect that his constant preaching on this board is an effort to give meaning to his life, for him to feel that he’s making the world a better place, something he has few if any other opportunities for, and keep himself from feeling like a parasite on society. Hard to suppress that kind of urge. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > My google fu is failing me right now, but there was a Pit thread discussing Clothy’s suspension, and I thought I remembered iiandyii posting about other potential trolls to keep an eye on. When I included “iiandyii” in the search, google asked if I meant “icandy.” He didn’t start the thread. > > Maybe I’m having another senior moment. I believe I linked to the thread you refer to in post #72. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/83 "2017-05-11T14:13:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I believe I linked to the thread you refer to in post #72. To save some effort of others, here are my posts in that thread in which I talk about anyone aside from **Clothahump** : > [@Republitrolls.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republitrolls/777646/73): > > I know I have a rep of feeding the trolls, but I engage as I do because I knew people who act and discuss things just like pretty much every long-time Doper accused of right-wing trollery while I was in the Navy, and they were all sincere. Some of them were assholes, but they were sincere assholes. So I’ll join the camp that these guys are probably sincere, and some of them are assholes. > [@Republitrolls.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republitrolls/777646/100): > > This demonstrates the biggest reason why I’m glad I joined the Navy - I served with all kinds of people, and it forced me to get over the juvenile stance that people who disagreed with me were just divorced from reality, or stupid, or dishonest. No, it taught me that depending on their experiences, thoughtful and decent people can reach very different conclusions. It’s a shame that this juvenile belief is so widespread, though. Even though we disagree, I believe that you, OMG, came about your positions honestly, and you’re probably a decent guy, even if you think I’m divorced from reality because I’m generally liberal. > [@Republitrolls.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republitrolls/777646/328): > > In case anyone missed it, **Clothahump** [admitted to being a troll in another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19946433#post19946433) (and received a warning for it). > > So I’ll take back my earlier broad defense – at least one long-time conservative Doper is a troll. Hopefully he’s alone in that. So if that’s the thread, I think **Knowed Out** was clearly having a brain fart. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/84 "2017-05-11T14:30:48Z")
> [@Republitrolls.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/republitrolls/777646/100): > > This demonstrates the biggest reason why I’m glad I joined the Navy - I served with all kinds of people, and it forced me to get over the juvenile stance that people who disagreed with me were just divorced from reality, or stupid, or dishonest. No, it taught me that depending on their experiences, thoughtful and decent people can reach very different conclusions. It’s a shame that this juvenile belief is so widespread, though. Even though we disagree, I believe that you, OMG, came about your positions honestly, and you’re probably a decent guy, even if you think I’m divorced from reality because I’m generally liberal. My issue is that it is clear that none of these conservatives being discussed clearly share my core values and ideals (honesty, integrity, fairness, concern for the truth no matter what it might be, capacity to introspect, compassion, ability to grasp other perspectives without bias or distortion), because I see them violate each of these ideals in pretty much every post I see from them. So maybe they did come by their positions “honestly”, and/or may indeed be “decent” individuals–but the end result, either way, is that I end up seeing a bunch of illogical, simplistic, and divisive/dualistic blather that I’d rather not have to plow through. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/85 "2017-05-11T14:46:39Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > My issue is that it is clear that none of these conservatives being discussed clearly share my core values and ideals (honesty, integrity, fairness, concern for the truth no matter what it might be, capacity to introspect, compassion, ability to grasp other perspectives without bias or distortion), because I see them violate each of these ideals in pretty much every post I see from them. > > So maybe they did come by their positions “honestly”, and/or may indeed be “decent” individuals–but the end result, either way, is that I end up seeing a bunch of illogical, simplistic, and divisive/dualistic blather that I’d rather not have to plow through. Be deeply suspicious of any time that you conclude the people who disagree with you **necessarily** stand against honesty, integrity, fairness, etc. Once in awhile that might be true, but far more often it’s self-serving. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/86 "2017-05-11T15:43:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Be deeply suspicious of any time that you conclude the people who disagree with you **necessarily** stand against honesty, integrity, fairness, etc. Once in awhile that might be true, but far more often it’s self-serving. I myself have no particular reasons to believe that liberals and conservatives differ WRT honesty or integrity. But I do think liberals are more likely to engage in intellectually dishonest tactics in discussions on this board. The rationale for that is that the overwhelming liberal dominance makes liberal posts and positions far more likely to be accepted positively and uncritically, and conservative posts and positions more likely to be challenged. This creates a dynamic where liberals are more likely to be swept up in general hubris and board conventional wisdom, and go out on a limb with over the top statements and/or positions which can’t be rationally backed up. By contrast, conservatives need to be much more careful and circumspect to begin with, knowing that there’s a high likelihood that their statements will be challenged and picked apart. The upshot of it all is that if you compare a liberal and conservative poster with the exact same level of honesty, integrity (and reasoning capability & intelligence) the liberal is more likely to find themselves out on a very limb and having a strong incentive to engage in some weaseling, while the conservative is less likely to find himself in that situation. In addition, when a liberal does engage in weaseling, it’s less likely to be judged as such by the majority of posters than if a conservative does the same, due to ideological affinity. In sum, on average, liberals on this board have both more motive and more opportunity to engage in intellectually devious behavior, and it makes sense to assume that this does indeed happen at a greater rate. But again, that’s due to the specific nature of this MB. It would follow from the above that on a conservative-leaning board, the opposite would be true. And even here, there’s obviously enormous overlap, honest liberals, dishonest conservatives etc. This is about averages. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/87 "2017-05-11T16:00:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The upshot of it all is that if you compare a liberal and conservative poster with the exact same level of honesty, integrity (and reasoning capability & intelligence) the liberal is more likely to find themselves out on a very limb and having a strong incentive to engage in some weaseling, while the conservative is less likely to find himself in that situation. > > In addition, when a liberal does engage in weaseling, it’s less likely to be judged as such by the majority of posters than if a conservative does the same, due to ideological affinity. Frankly, I think this is mostly baloney. Maybe it’s true sometimes, maybe not. What is baloney is treating individuals as if they behave in a group. I don’t think it’s useful to generalize in this fashion, especially as a means to denigrate. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/88 "2017-05-11T16:02:32Z")
Does that contradict something I wrote? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/89 "2017-05-11T17:32:31Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Frankly, I think this is mostly baloney. Maybe it’s true sometimes, maybe not. What is baloney is treating individuals as if they behave in a group. I don’t think it’s useful to generalize in this fashion, especially as a means to denigrate. All you mods say that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/90 "2017-05-11T17:35:39Z")
Mmmm, denigrated baloney. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/91 "2017-05-11T21:30:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I like **Shodan** as he can be entertaining, but I’ve never found it to be fruitful in any way to debate with him. And it’s _so_ fruitful to debate with liberals, they’re always open to having their minds changed! Why, I’ve lost count of the occasions when you for instance have admitted that your argument is wrong and have accepted that your opponent has the right of it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/92 "2017-05-11T21:36:51Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > And it’s _so_ fruitful to debate with liberals, they’re always open to having their minds changed! Being willing to change one’s mind is useful, but not necessary for fruitful debate. There are lots of lefties on this MB that I respect and enjoy debating with. ETA: > [@](#): > > Why, I’ve lost count of the occasions when you for instance have admitted that your argument is wrong and have accepted that your opponent has the right of it. I don’t claim to be a paragon of virtue, but I’ve admitted mistakes plenty of times. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/93 "2017-05-11T21:51:06Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > And it’s _so_ fruitful to debate with liberals, they’re always open to having their minds changed! Why, I’ve lost count of the occasions when you for instance have admitted that your argument is wrong and have accepted that your opponent has the right of it. Totally depends on the ‘liberal’. There are a lot of folks who self-identify with that tag on this message board, and some are very intelligent, knowledgeable especially vertically on a given subject, and also open to debate. I’ve seen a few people who I think of as ‘liberal’ who have modified their stance on some vertical issues in the past. Since there are a lot more folks of a liberal or left-wing bent on this board there are going to be more assholes…but it’s pretty nice the number of folks on the MB who spend their time in debate and also in going into detail to explain WHY the feel the way they do on a given subject. Of course, the converse also has to be true…YOU need to be open to new ideas, want to debate in good faith even if you are quite passionate about a subject, be willing to challenge your own ideas when contrary evidence is presented and also willing to say you are wrong when you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2017, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915/94 "2017-05-12T07:24:41Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > And it’s _so_ fruitful to debate with liberals, they’re always open to having their minds changed! Why, I’ve lost count of the occasions when you for instance have admitted that your argument is wrong and have accepted that your opponent has the right of it. Maybe this would go better for you if your arguments weren’t so piss-poor. I’m admittedly a bad example here, as I’m sure some would attest, but there are plenty of liberals who are bigger men than I am. But I rarely see an argument from you, or indeed many of the conservatives here, that isn’t blatantly and obviously horseshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-shodan-for-stubborness/785915.md?page=4)