# Pitting Some People at a Navajo Landmark **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 9, 2023, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945 "2023-03-09T19:30:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/61 "2023-03-11T05:03:20Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > > [@scudsucker](#): > > > > no westerner is insane enough to deal with Indonesian traffic, I think @CairoCarol can confirm > > You’d think, and certainly the majority of us had drivers if we could afford them and used other forms of transport when we couldn’t - but I did have a number of foreign friends who not only owned and drove their own cars, but who owned and drove motorbikes 😱 😱 😱 Count me among them. Including by motorcycle. Driving (and riding) in such places may seem crazy to the visiting Westerner. Traffic control, signs, painted lines, traffic lights — they are merely subtle suggestions. Sidewalks, when available, are fair game too. But there is a method to the madness and it can be done. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/62 "2023-03-11T05:08:25Z")
Grand Falls has been on my list since I saw pictures of it recently. It looks awesome! Count me among those newbies who would want to visit it. But disrespect and desecrate the land? People who do that should have their fingernails removed, one by one, without any pain killers. It’s people like that who, six years ago, drove on and damaged Racetrack Playa in Death Valley. I hope those people get caught and are severely (and similarly) punished. > **[Some Jerk Raced Across Death Valley's Racetrack Playa, Leaving Tire Marks...](https://laist.com/news/racetrack-playa-vandalism)** > > The Racetrack playa is where those self-moving boulders are. > **[Investigators think they know who tore up Death Valley's fragile Racetrack...](https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-death-valley-damage-20160927-snap-story.html)** > > Federal investigators have identified a suspect believed responsible for a frenzy of high-speed driving across “Racetrack Playa,” a remote dry lake in Death Valley National Park, officials said Tuesday. Also, I searched here but could not find a discussion about that vandalism. I thought there was a thread on it, but could not find it. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/63 "2023-03-11T05:09:39Z")
And I too favor some kind of permit control system. I hope the land becomes accessible in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/64 "2023-03-11T16:45:25Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Driving (and riding) in such places may seem crazy to the visiting Westerner. Knowing one foreigner who died from his injuries while riding a motorbike and another who sustained life-changing permanent injuries, I would say yes, it is pretty crazy. The other risk, which actually scared me more, was being involved in an accident in which someone else was injured or killed. I had a very safe, rational driver and off the top of my head I can recall two accidents we were involved in while I was in the car, and one where I wasn’t in the car but my son was (you can imagine the panic I felt when I received a call that there had been a crash and I knew my son, then about 2 yrs old, was in the vehicle - luckily he was fine). None were the fault of my driver, but if I - a foreigner, doubtless with unlimited cash resources in the eyes of the other driver - had been behind the wheel but the circumstances otherwise identical, it would have been a mess. As I’ve mentioned before, I worked for a few years on road safety issues in Indonesia, and learned a lot from the experts. Indonesia has an awful record, with pedestrians and motorcyclists bearing the brunt of the casualties. All this is not to say no foreigner should ever drive in Indonesia (or Egypt, or Mozambique … other countries with bad safety records where I lived), just to highlight how risky it really is. People have different risk tolerances - I came under criticism from family members for being willing to take the risk of living in countries with inadequate health care while I had a young child. But I had educated myself about the risks and always had a “plan B” in place, so it worked for me. So, I don’t judge, if people want to assume that risk. But they should have a clear understanding of how dangerous it really is. (Sorry about the hijack, will shut up now.) ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/65 "2023-03-11T17:31:41Z")
I don’t want to extend the hijack, but, simply want to say thank you @CC. Back to the thread… there are many places in the southwest US that I’d love to see and are controlled by the Diné Navajo Nation. I hope they remain open and accessible. Someone upthread mentioned Monument Valley and control of visitors. My understanding is that anyone can enter the valley unescorted but is limited to a basic loop road (a dirt road) within the valley. To go farther in and get closer to the buttes requires a Navajo guide. I plan to be there (Monument Valley) for the annular solar eclipse in October. I have reservations at the View Hotel and will be taking a guided tour of the valley. > **[I just learned about the annular solar eclipse of October 14, 2023, which...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-just-learned-about-the-annular-solar-eclipse-of-october-14-2023-which-will-be-passing-right-over-my-house/962945)** > > That said, I do live in Oregon, and my history with attempted eclipse viewing has been less than stellar. There may still be some posters on here who were with me at Jonathan Chance’s viewing party in South Carolina, where it got rained out. ... ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2023, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/66 "2023-03-11T20:36:40Z")
Putting on my Doom and Gloom hat, destruction and/or change beyond recognition of natural and historic sites is an inevitable outcome of the combination of: -Population increases -Easier, cheaper, and more convenient transportation, which not only means more people can go more places, but that going places feels less special -The internet and social media putting even the most obscure, local, or unknown sites in front of the eyes of millions Natural sites will either be walled off, managed and maintained with a massive amount of infrastructure and money, or destroyed. Pretty places that one can just go to and enjoy in a peaceful, serene, sacred, or just still sort of way are on their way out. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/67 "2023-03-13T14:23:17Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The Navajo Nation does not have the resources of the National Park Service They should receive these resources because it is beneficial to the entire nation to protect ALL of the land in our nation. > Do Indian people pay taxes? **Individual American Indians and Alaskan Natives and their businesses pay federal income taxes just like every other American**. I guess its okay for them to pay taxes but not receive the same services as other tax paying Americans?! Nothing has changed in this nation. Our approach to Native Americans has always been, “What’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is mine.” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/68 "2023-03-13T16:03:03Z")
Well, sure, but that doesn’t mean every spot on Navajo Land should be protected by the NPS any more than any other natural wonder gets immediate protection. Look, there are a lot of natural wonders that fall into this “popular enough that they attract people, but not so amazing, or conveniently placed that they attract enough people to be worth the security it takes to keep them safe”. There are tons of sits, maybe thousands, that fall into this cateogry, and if they have a sudden increase in popularity, you pretty much have to cut off access until the fad passes. Here is an example of another similar situation. > **[Newspaper Rock State Historic Monument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspaper_Rock_State_Historic_Monument?wprov=sfla1)** > > Newspaper Rock State Historic Monument is a Utah state monument featuring a rock panel carved with one of the largest known collections of petroglyphs. It is located in San Juan County, along Utah State Route 211, 28 miles (45 km) northwest of Monticello and 53 miles (85 km) south of Moab. > It is along the relatively well-traveled access road into the Needles district of Canyonlands National Park, 12 miles (19 km) from US 191 and 30 miles (48 km) from the park boundary. The 200-square-foot (19 m2... It’s basically in a picnic area. A little off the beaten path. Absolutely extraordinary. But there’s no money to protect it. Anyone can walk right up, which is amazing. But you bet your ass if it became a viral thing to go there, they’d close the road. Fuck. Chaco Canton is arguably the single most impressive ancient site in North America and does have the resources of the NPS, and the only way they can really keep it safe is to discourage people with bad roads and close big chunks to visitors. Grand Falls is very special. But there are a whole shit ton of special places, and it simply isn’t feasible to keep them all both safe and accessible. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/69 "2023-03-13T16:11:13Z")
Good post, and I’m in agreement. The conclusion seems to be that, “A”, the Navajo have every right to make any and all decisions regarding their own land and, “B”, we don’t have any right to complain about it. ---
**Author:** ![Lare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Lare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lare)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/70 "2023-03-13T16:59:32Z")
And “C” there are some uncouth people who should not be allowed outside, as in my OP. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/71 "2023-03-13T17:44:35Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > My understanding is that anyone can enter the valley unescorted but is limited to a basic loop road (a dirt road) within the valley. To go farther in and get closer to the buttes requires a Navajo guide. That’s correct, you cannot hike there unescorted. That’s eminently sensible. It’s such a popular area that it would be a mess of inexperienced hikers getting into trouble if you could. There is no water so no routes amenable to overnight backpacking anyway. ---
**Author:** ![CaveMike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cavemike/32/16379_2.png) [@CaveMike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaveMike)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945/72 "2023-03-15T02:07:34Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > -Population increases > -Easier, cheaper, and more convenient transportation, which not only means more people can go more places, but that going places feels less special > -The internet and social media putting even the most obscure, local, or unknown sites in front of the eyes of millions > > Natural sites will either be walled off, managed and maintained with a massive amount of infrastructure and money, or destroyed. Pretty places that one can just go to and enjoy in a peaceful, serene, sacred, or just still sort of way are on their way out. I think this is a good point. You can’t touch Stonehenge anymore for these same reasons. How many places have we visited that are protected with boardwalks and railings? These are new additions to deal with the sheer traffic – not just the jerks. When I look through old photos of sites I have visited, I am always surprised “Oh you used to be able to walk right up on that rock.” or “That 1950’s family is having a picnic right under the waterfall.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-some-people-at-a-navajo-landmark/980945.md?page=3)