# Pitting Steophan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678 "2017-09-06T22:34:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/81 "2021-11-28T15:15:33Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > By Steophan’s logic, let’s face it, if Justice Kavanaugh sodomized and killed a toddler in front of a thousand witnesses, but the Senate wouldn’t impeach him because the President was a Democrat, Kavanaugh would be innocent. I don’t think you understand impeachment… Anyway, that would be a criminal issue, and if a fair trial found him not guilty _then_ he would be innocent. If you’re implying that I think that, were he convicted of such a thing but the Senate still declined to impeach him that he would still be fit to serve as a Judge then yes, I do, as the power to make that decision belongs to the Senate. Sometimes democracy sucks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/82 "2021-11-28T15:17:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I still believe that standing up for yourself against bullies is a good thing, and I believe that Dunn did exactly that. I also believe that he was wrong to shoot at the people who threatened him as they were fleeing, and should be punished for that, but so should those people who threatened him with a shotgun. But that’s not what you said. What you said, very specifically, is that convicted child-murderer Dunn, who was determined beyond a reasonable doubt to have killed an unarmed child and shot at fleeing children, is “the sort of [person] normal people want around them”. Those are your specific words, different than what you say above. Do you still believe those specific words of praise about Dunn? > [@](#): > > You know what I don’t believe? That a middle aged man with no criminal record wakes up one day and decides to shoot some people making up a story about a shotgun to justify it. It’s a weird form of reverse racism at play here, where you don’t believe a bunch of young black men listening to gansta rap could possibly be armed, but that an ordinary older guy with no history would just shoot them. Hell, swap the races and I’d still believe the story - sadly too many don’t and there’s black people out there who won’t defend themselves because they know they won’t get the benefit of the doubt. I believe what the evidence demonstrates. That’s why we have trials. The evidence demonstrated, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Dunn was lying, and he had no justification for killing the unarmed child and then shooting at the fleeing children. > [@](#): > > If someone claims to have been threatened with a weapon, treat them as the victim they are claiming to be. I agree, unless the evidence demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that they are lying. In this case it did. Dunn was not a victim, not by any means. He’s a child murderer and liar, convicted by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/83 "2021-11-28T15:19:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you’re implying that I think that, were he convicted of such a thing but the Senate still declined to impeach him that he would still be fit to serve as a Judge then yes, I do, as the power to make that decision belongs to the Senate. Sometimes democracy sucks. I can’t really do anything more to condem someone than what you’ve just done to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/84 "2021-11-28T15:19:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > if a fair trial found him not guilty _then_ he would be innocent. This is a misunderstanding of the law. [A “not guilty” verdict is not a declaration of innocence](https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/not-guilty-and-innocent-problem-children-reasonable-doubt) and should not be treated as such; it’s simply a conclusion that the state did not make a “beyond a reasonable doubt” case for guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/85 "2021-11-28T15:36:01Z")
He is presumed innocent, a not guilty verdict reaffirms that presumption. There are, of course, cases where someone is proven guilty outside of court, but they are rare and can only happen when there’s an unfair trial - such as an incompetent prosecution. The trial of Emmett Till’s killers is the most egregious example I know about in any detail. This is why I’ve repeatedly asked people what additional evidence they have that was not presented at the Zimmerman trial, as that must exist if the trial was badly prosecuted. As yet, no one had produced any, so it remains the fact that Zimmerman is innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/86 "2021-11-28T15:37:14Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > I can’t really do anything more to condem someone than what you’ve just done to yourself. Condemn me for what, precisely? A preference for democracy and the rule of law even if they are flawed? What should be done in your hypothetical apart from voting for a new Senate that would disqualify him? ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/87 "2021-11-28T15:38:07Z")
He’s talking about Dunn idiot. And Zimmerman should be in jail. ETA: … idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/88 "2021-11-28T15:38:07Z")
Burn down the senate. Yes, sometimes that is the PROPER response. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/89 "2021-11-28T15:42:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you still believe those specific words of praise about Dunn? I have repeatedly said yes, I stand by them. People should stand up to bullies and defend themselves against them, I believe that to be praiseworthy behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/90 "2021-11-28T15:44:13Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > And Zimmerman should be in jail. Why should someone found not guilty by a court be in jail? I’ll ask again, what evidence do you have that wasn’t presented to the court that would change the jury’s verdict? Or do you just want him locked up because you dislike what he did, regardless of the legality of it? That’s what I actually believe of you, and it makes you a dangerous person. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/91 "2021-11-28T15:44:49Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Burn down the senate. Yes, sometimes that is the PROPER response. The people on January 6th believed as you do. Look in the mirror and weep. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/92 "2021-11-28T15:46:15Z")
Go fuck yourself. Your previous United States exists because of a revolution. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/93 "2021-11-28T15:46:53Z")
I edited the title to reflect the new pit title rules. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/94 "2021-11-28T15:47:03Z")
> That’s what I actually believe of you, and it makes you a dangerous person. So dangerous! That’s fine. You’re a racist dinosaur who defends the murder of unarmed black children. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/95 "2021-11-28T15:48:12Z")
An ironically correct typo there. I’m as american as I am christian, as suggested earlier. For those who might think I’m a straight white christian american man, you’d get 2 out of 5, and recent reflection suggests that one of those is more a habit than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/96 "2021-11-28T15:48:27Z")
Remember he’s also okay with Supreme Court justices buggering toddlers in public as long as they have sufficiently powerful friends. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/97 "2021-11-28T15:49:41Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > You’re a racist dinosaur who defends the murder of unarmed black children. No, I defend those who defend themselves against violent criminals. That you _don’t_ do this should cause a fair amount of self reflection, but I strongly doubt it will. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/98 "2021-11-28T15:51:48Z")
I’m just sayin. You seem to like child killers a whole lot. People make connections. The next unarmed black child shot by an armed and righteous seeking white guy… I’m betting you’ll side with the killer. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/99 "2021-11-28T15:51:50Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > Remember he’s also okay with Supreme Court justices buggering toddlers in public as long as they have sufficiently powerful friends. No, I think they should be locked up for their crimes if they’re proven guilty, and that if those powerful friends try to protect them they should be voted out of their positions of power. What I’m not OK with is ignoring the process of law and democracy because you don’t like the results. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2021, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/100 "2021-11-28T15:52:43Z")
I see the typo but the rest of your post is gibberish. In the previous United States slavery was the law, I’m sure you think slave rebellions were criminal acts, but that’s just because you’re a revolting immoral monster. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678.md?page=6)