# Pitting Steophan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 6, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678 "2017-09-06T22:34:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/141 "2021-12-02T21:24:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > > > Okay, find such a post. Just a single one. Then we can talk about it. > > You are denying condemning the bullies of minorities? Seriously? You are being ridiculous. No – you said that “the moment the victim is a white male exercising their basic rights you can’t do that, you condemn him” That is what I’m asking for – please cite this. I’m not denying it – I don’t think I’ve done this, and I don’t accept your accusation without a cite, but maybe I did and you can prove it. So prove it. I don’t think I said this, so if you think I did then prove it with a specific cite. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I’ve done as you’ve asked and explained what you’re wrong about. No you didn’t – you objected to a neutral, purely factual statement. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/142 "2021-12-02T21:30:44Z")
Why his posts give YOU that impression is that you’re a drooling moron. Come back when you’ve fixed that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/143 "2021-12-02T21:31:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No – you said that “the moment the victim is a white male exercising their basic rights you can’t do that, you condemn him” You called Rittenhouse a murderer in the thread you linked to - with context, in the _actual post_ you linked to. Despite proof being shown in the trial that he acted in self defence. Your own words condemn you, but you don’t see that, so quoting more of them won’t help. But hey, we can test this. Deny Rittenhouse is a murderer. Deny Zimmerman is a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/144 "2021-12-02T21:32:34Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Why his posts give YOU that impression is that you’re a drooling moron. Come back when you’ve fixed that. I’ll have you know I’m not currently drooling. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/145 "2021-12-02T21:32:44Z")
Very interesting that after oh so many discussions about law, Steophan _still_ factually falsely believes that a “not guilty” verdict is somehow a finding of innocence, or a finding of self-defense, or a finding of _anything_, when all it’s a finding of is that the case against the defendant has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. IANAL, but I know this very basic legal fact. Steophan, you still appear not to know this. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/146 "2021-12-02T21:33:45Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Why his posts give YOU that impression is that you’re a drooling moron. Fact check: True! So, not an insult. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/147 "2021-12-02T21:34:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You called Rittenhouse a murderer in the thread you linked to - with context, in the _actual post_ you linked to. Cite this. Be specific. I’m not aware that I called anyone a murderer in that thread, aside from KKK killers who were acquitted or ignored in a white supremacist judicial system of the early 20th. I just went through every single post I made in that thread. I didn’t call Rittenhouse, or anyone aside from those KKK people, a murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/148 "2021-12-02T21:43:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Very interesting that after oh so many discussions about law, Steophan _still_ factually falsely believes that a “not guilty” verdict is somehow a finding of innocence, or a finding of self-defense, or a finding of _anything_ , when all it’s a finding of is that the case against the defendant has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. IANAL, but I know this very basic legal fact. Steophan, you still appear not to know this. Two things. Firstly, innocent until proven guilty is a legal fact, so a finding of “not guilty” reaffirms that fact. Secondly, I didn’t claim that the result of the trial proves innocence, I said it was proven at the trial. Sufficient evidence was produced at the trials of both Zimmerman and Rittenhouse to prove innocence _in addition_ to the legal fact of their innocence. You have responded to posts where I’ve explained this before, so you know my views, and yet decided to falsely represent my views. Hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/149 "2021-12-02T21:44:37Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Fact check: True! So, not an insult. As I said, I’m not currently drooling. So, false! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/150 "2021-12-02T21:48:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Firstly, innocent until proven guilty is a legal fact, so a finding of “not guilty” reaffirms that fact. Factually false. This is a slogan, not a legal fact. If you believe “not guilty” means, legally speaking, innocent, then provide such a cite. Otherwise, you are factually false. > [@](#): > > Secondly, I didn’t claim that the result of the trial proves innocence, I said it was proven at the trial. Sufficient evidence was produced at the trials of both Zimmerman and Rittenhouse to prove innocence _in addition_ to the legal fact of their innocence. This is your opinion, not fact. Opinions and facts are different things. > [@](#): > > You have responded to posts where I’ve explained this before, so you know my views, and yet decided to falsely represent my views. Hypocrite. Let’s see a cite for this. So far all your accusations have been false – you’ve objected to neutral statements of fact, and made false and unsupported accusations of things I’ve said. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/151 "2021-12-02T21:49:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > But hey, we can test this. Deny Rittenhouse is a murderer. Deny Zimmerman is a murderer. Come on **andy** , prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/152 "2021-12-02T21:57:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As I said, I’m not currently drooling. So, false! I laughed! ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/153 "2021-12-02T22:02:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The ones where you describe someone proven to have been acting in self defence as a murderer Are you so fucking stupid that you don’t understand how our legal system works? Rittenhouse wasn’t “proven to have been acting in self defense”; the prosecution simply failed to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that he was not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/154 "2021-12-02T22:04:42Z")
I did. I didn’t call Rittenhouse a murderer anywhere in that thread. I doubt I’ve called him a murderer in any thread. If you don’t believe me, prove me wrong. Vote. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/155 "2021-12-02T22:05:30Z")
There was video shown in court of him being chased and attacked as he was running away. That’s proof of self defence and, as the video was presented in court, we know it’s both factual and relevant. The verdict doesn’t _prove_ him innocent, I will grant, as it doesn’t need to - he’s factually innocent until proven guilty. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/156 "2021-12-02T22:06:21Z")
Nice to see that you’re capable of admitting you’re wrong! Now let’s see cites for the claims you made about me. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/157 "2021-12-02T22:06:48Z")
There comes a point when the difference between intentionally making provocative posts and being too stupid to avoid making provocative posts is small enough that it doesn’t matter. Ignore them and let the mods deal with the mess. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/158 "2021-12-02T22:07:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I did. I didn’t call Rittenhouse a murderer anywhere in that thread. I doubt I’ve called him a murderer in any thread. So, repeat after me - “Rittenhouse is not a murderer, and nor is Zimmerman”. If you believe that, then say it. It’s not hard. Of course you won’t, though. You are incapable of stating a fact that conflicts with your bias. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/159 "2021-12-02T22:09:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Nice to see that you’re capable of admitting you’re wrong! I’ve admitted I’m wrong many times on this board. What I’m not wrong about is that the evidence provided at the trials of both Rittenhouse and Zimmerman proves they were innocent. The court won’t announce this because it doesn’t need to, it’s not their job to, because in general we don’t expect people to prove their innocence we presume it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2021, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678/160 "2021-12-02T22:10:09Z")
You made a claim about me. That claim was false. Now would be the time to apologize to me for making a false claim about me, not playing some weird pretend mind reading game. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-steophan/795678.md?page=9)