# Pitting the NRA **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881 "2009-12-11T17:48:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/61 "2009-12-14T14:39:51Z")
What did the survey they sent out say? I’ve been kind of curious to discover if they use the same sort of goofy push-polling that the Republicans are being accused of in a couple of current threads. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/62 "2009-12-14T14:45:39Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Possibly. How do you feel about flowers in your gun barrels? I’m not too keen on the extra cleaning involved. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/63 "2009-12-14T14:50:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Just keep the goddam things, if they mean that much to you. Fuck it, this fight just isn’t worth it! The gun issue kind of brings me back to our politicians and their fight against “banned drugs in MLB, NBA, NFL” Why should it be a concern to them? Guns are here to stay, stop dicking around with people’s right to have them. ANY legislation passed ABOUT guns is a threat to gun ownership, just leave them alone. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/64 "2009-12-14T14:54:59Z")
What? Public safety is one of their primary concerns. Guns (rightly or wrongly) are often percieved as a threat to public safety. You might as well ask why politicians are concerned about taxation. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/65 "2009-12-14T15:16:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What? Public safety is one of their primary concerns. Guns (rightly or wrongly) are often percieved as a threat to public safety. You might as well ask why politicians are concerned about taxation. Why are they perceived as a threat? I’ve never once had a conversation with a gun that killed someone, ever. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/66 "2009-12-14T15:16:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gotta admire the plucky little NRA, standing up to the massive financial power of the gun control lobby… That isn’t far from the truth. If you look at the Coalition to Ban Handguns, the Brady groups and others, they have some seriously deep pockets to draw on. The NRA is stuck with a lot of working poor and a couple - just a couple - actors. Almost makes me want to send them a check myself. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/67 "2009-12-14T15:22:48Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Why are they perceived as a threat? I’ve never once had a conversation with a gun that killed someone, ever. What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/68 "2009-12-14T15:24:39Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Don’t give me that horseshit. My wife is an active member of the local Democratic Party, and I see the propaganda that they put out. They might as well ask if you’ve stopped beating your wife yet. I really loved the survey they sent her the other week. Let us not get holier-than-thou. > > The NRA is not my organization. I am a member at the (very) lowest level (as in, someone gave me a gift membership because I wouldn’t give Wayne LaPierre my money) and I loathe the leadership and their tactics. I despise push polling in all of its forms. I can’t judge your local branch of the Democratic Party, having never seen what they put out. If they’re doing things like this, then your wife should push them to change their ways just as you should push the NRA to change its ways. An organization that believes in an ideology so strongly, that they justify outright lies to influence the people to empower that ideology, is corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/69 "2009-12-14T15:38:48Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Why should it be a concern to them? Guns are here to stay, stop dicking around with people’s right to have them. ANY legislation passed ABOUT guns is a threat to gun ownership, just leave them alone. This kind of hearkens back to my question about the end game for the NRA (btw thanks **Airman Doors** for your answer! I think you might be on the left side of the NRA…) **Kearsen** , are you talking about any NEW legislation, or do you favor no laws concerning guns whatsoever? In other words, should I be able to go to a store and purchase any kind of gun with no paperwork whatsoever, no evidence that I know how to use the weapon safely, and then transport and store the gun however I like? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/70 "2009-12-14T15:56:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What the hell are you talking about? I believe he was freestyling on “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. Of course, people without guns have a harder time killing people, but that slogan doesn’t scan as well. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/71 "2009-12-14T15:58:19Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I can’t judge your local branch of the Democratic Party, having never seen what they put out. If they’re doing things like this, then your wife should push them to change their ways just as you should push the NRA to change its ways. > > An organization that believes in an ideology so strongly, that they justify outright lies to influence the people to empower that ideology, is corrupt. I can’t speak for **Airman** , but I DO push back on the NRA with a letter whenever I get this kind of ridiculous push polling from them. Like almost every national-scope political organization in this country, they have good points and flamingly insane points–so what’s a guy to do? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/72 "2009-12-14T16:07:59Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I can’t judge your local branch of the Democratic Party, having never seen what they put out. If they’re doing things like this, then your wife should push them to change their ways just as you should push the NRA to change its ways. You know, you’re absolutely right. A while back I decried exactly what I just did, the old “but they do it too” canard. I guess it’s too strong an instinct to entirely resist. That said, I’m about to do it again in response to your next point, because it’s somewhat unavoidable. > [@](#): > > An organization that believes in an ideology so strongly, that they justify outright lies to influence the people to empower that ideology, is corrupt. [ > [@Ted Kennedy](#): > > Robert Bork’s America is a land in which women would be forced into back-alley abortions, blacks would sit at segregated lunch counters, rogue police could break down citizens’ doors in midnight raids, schoolchildren could not be taught about evolution, writers and artists could be censored at the whim of the Government, and the doors of the Federal courts would be shut on the fingers of millions of citizens for whom the judiciary is—and is often the only—protector of the individual rights that are the heart of our democracy… President Reagan is still our president. But he should not be able to reach out from the muck of Irangate, reach into the muck of Watergate and impose his reactionary vision of the Constitution on the Supreme Court and the next generation of Americans. No justice would be better than this injustice. ]([Robert Bork - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bork#Supreme_Court_nomination)) It’s terribly unfortunate that people have to resort to lies and exaggerations in the furtherance of their cause, isn’t it? Did you ever ask yourself why interest groups are able to get away with this sort of thing? The answer is obvious: the groups that they oppose have demonstrated their willingness to go to such great lengths that it appears that no lengths are too great. The particular canard that the OP opposes stems from the idea that the United States under the Democrats may potentially [enter into an international arms control treaty](http://italy.usembassy.gov/pdf/other/RS22108.pdf) (warning: PDF) that will be the anvil the Democrats use to backdoor gun control laws that they cannot get passed domestically. Is it probable? No. Is it possible? It is remotely possible. Very remote. But then again, so was the AWB in 1992, and that passed. It is entirely due to the death of a thousand cuts tactics that gun-control advocates use to further their goals that is it is seen that way. And thus we get back to my point: the NRA plays on those fears because they have at some point in the past been realized. This is not anything new. This is nothing more than interest group politics in the United States of America. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/73 "2009-12-14T16:10:28Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I do think self defense is obviously a basic human right, and I do think there’s a correlation between gun ownership and self defense - both in the obvious practical sense, and also in the sense that societies that tend to limit private ownership of guns (or retrict that ownership to only sporting purposes) also tend to be restrictive of the right of self defense more generally. Along with a dismissive stance on personal responsibility towards self defense often come requirements that you flee rather than fight, arresting people who killed someone in self defense, creating a society in which the expectation is that you essentially shut down and become a sheep and wait for the police to show up rather than take ultimate responsibility for your own defense. I love this sort of reasoning. It is so irrational as to be almost breathtaking. It should be on a museum wall someplace. Personally, I am concerned about my safety first rather than my right to defend myself. I’d rather have a society in which fewer criminals had access to easily concealable guns then the ability for me to kill them once they threaten me. This is what I see as wrong with the gun nuts. You live for the day when you will be in a situation to pull out your gun so you can justify all the money and time you’ve spent on your fetish. Maybe you are against gun control to make that more likely. I remember the days when only police officers and security guards thought it necessary to carry handguns. When ads for rifles in Boys Life were about hunting and target shooting. These days guns are marketed to yahoos who want to “defend themselves” or guard against the black helicopters. The popularity of hunting is dwindling but gun sales are up. This is a sick society. Maye it won’t change until there is a raft of political assassinations of conservatives like there was of liberals in the 60s. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/74 "2009-12-14T16:23:21Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > This is what I see as wrong with the gun nuts. You live for the day when you will be in a situation to pull out your gun so you can justify all the money and time you’ve spent on your fetish. Maybe you are against gun control to make that more likely. It never gets old, does it? The truth is this: NOBODY wants to have to pull out a gun to defend themselves. Nobody. The costs are so great that it is an absolute last resort. If you pull out a gun and shoot somebody, you will go to jail, you will almost certainly be charged with a crime, and you will have to defend yourself against that charge. A finding of innocence is by no means guaranteed. In addition, you have the high likelihood of a civil suit, and a finding against you is possible even with an acquittal in criminal court. The financial cost alone is incredibly high. People have been broken for life under these circumstances. There’s also the psychological aspect. This is not the movies. People who shoot other people, no matter what the circumstance, have to live with that for the rest of their lives. That is not something that you can shrug off. For those reasons alone your assertion above is patently false, in every way. The only positive thing that results from a justifiable shooting is that you, the person who chose those means to defend yourself, are still alive. So spare us all the bullshit, would you? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/75 "2009-12-14T16:38:06Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > There’s also the psychological aspect. This is not the movies. People who shoot other people, no matter what the circumstance, have to live with that for the rest of their lives. That is not something that you can shrug off. And yet you advocate a society where every traffic accident, or dispute over a parking space, or someone insulting your wife, or a host of other personal slights could result in people pulling out their guns. Where political rallies are places to bring rifles rather than debate, where every police officer’s job becomes more dangerous, every domestic argument has more potential for death, and suicides become more deadly. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/76 "2009-12-14T16:42:19Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > This kind of hearkens back to my question about the end game for the NRA (btw thanks **Airman Doors** for your answer! I think you might be on the left side of the NRA…) > > **Kearsen** , are you talking about any NEW legislation, or do you favor no laws concerning guns whatsoever? In other words, should I be able to go to a store and purchase any kind of gun with no paperwork whatsoever, no evidence that I know how to use the weapon safely, and then transport and store the gun however I like? Strawman? Gun registration is fine. Lots of gun s can currently be purchased that way now. Handguns are the target of new legislation (well that and the infamous “assault weapons” whatever those are). Handguns are no more dangerous than rifles, why go after them harder than rifles? In my opinion, gun usage is a passed down trait (father/son, grandad/grandson etc) Likely, if you are a person who will buy and use ANY gun, you will be versed in how to do so properly. I wouldn’t be adverse to having mandatory ‘proper gun usage’ classes in order to own a firearm. What I don’t want to see are blanket gun laws diminishing the ability to buy or use guns whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/77 "2009-12-14T16:50:07Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Handguns are no more dangerous than rifles, why go after them harder than rifles? Are you really that stupid? Handguns are more dangerous because they can be concealed. It’s harder to walk into a bank hiding a rifle, or sneak into a courtroom, or get near the President, or enter an abortion clinic. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/78 "2009-12-14T16:56:44Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Are you really that stupid? Handguns are more dangerous because they can be concealed. It’s harder to walk into a bank hiding a rifle, or sneak into a courtroom, or get near the President, or enter an abortion clinic. Are ninjas more dangerous than samurai as well? They blend in with their surroundings so much better. If it is a registered gun then you have culpability. What else do you need? As an aside, if someone wants to kill someone they don’t necessarily need a gun, ya know. Oh, and yes you are that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/79 "2009-12-14T17:01:29Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Liberty-hating politicians, huh? Well, I can see why **you’re** in the NRA.. :rolleyes: With apologies to Mr. Nugent, **Crafter\_Man** _IS_ the NRA. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/80 "2009-12-14T17:05:19Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > I wouldn’t be adverse to having mandatory ‘proper gun usage’ classes in order to own a firearm. > > What I don’t want to see are blanket gun laws diminishing the ability to buy or use guns whatsoever. Your first point seems quite reasonable. I have seen opinions of others that manadatory gun usage classes are just a slippery slope to registration, and they want nothing to do with it. I don’t know what the official NRA policy is on this though. For your last point - so you’d be OK if John Q Public could walk into a shop with no ID and purchase a handgun with cash and no paperwork required? And then be able to carry this loaded handgun either concealed or open carry in any location he desired? I’m seriously not trying to yank anyone’s chain here, I just want to know where exactly people think the limits to gun ownership and use are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881.md?page=5)