# Pitting the NRA **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881 "2009-12-11T17:48:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/81 "2009-12-14T17:06:53Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Are ninjas more dangerous than samurai as well? They blend in with their surroundings so much better. You’ve got him on the ropes… now go for the “Chewbacca Defense” _coup de grâce_! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/82 "2009-12-14T17:22:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What? Public safety is one of their primary concerns. Guns (rightly or wrongly) are often percieved as a threat to public safety. Preventing another 9-11 Massacre is one of the government’s primary concerns. Saddam Hussein (rightly or wrongly) was often perceived as one of the instigators of that attack. Ergo, the invasion of Iraq was justified. _Quod Est Delirium._ ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/83 "2009-12-14T17:23:04Z")
Another alternative organization: [American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA)](http://www.huntersandshooters.com/). It even endorsed Obama for president, which may or may not be good to you, but definitely shows they are of a different mind than the NRA. Their list of values: > [@](#): > > AHSA is committed to supporting the right to keep and bear arms, protecting our homes, and preserving our liberties. > > Hunting and sport shooting are American values AHSA will vigorously defend. > AHSA is dedicated to protecting and maintaining our nation’s valuable wilderness resources for the preservation and use of all Americans. > > AHSA is committed to safety in all aspects of the shooting sports including the recognition that adults are responsible for keeping guns out of the hands of children. > > AHSA is committed to supporting our nation’s law enforcement officers in their fight against easy access to guns by criminals, terrorists and others. > > AHSA is a non-partisan organization that advocates and advances sensible public policies. We will never support unfettered access to all types of weapons. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/84 "2009-12-14T17:25:10Z")
Bunch of pussies, is what it sounds like. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/85 "2009-12-14T17:29:47Z")
By the way you phrased the OP, **CandidGamera** , I assume you have an interest in gun rights and not gun control. Therefore, I am compelled to tell you that the [AHSA is an astroturfing group](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Hunters_and_Shooters_Association). Do with that what you will. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/86 "2009-12-14T17:34:00Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Are ninjas more dangerous than samurai as well? They blend in with their surroundings so much better. > If it is a registered gun then you have culpability. What else do you need? You do know the NRA strongly opposes any and all gun registration legislation, yes? ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/87 "2009-12-14T17:39:18Z")
Is that why they [oppose the restriction of gun rights in New Jersey](http://www.huntersandshooters.org/node/1501)? They really suck at this! Face it, not everyone finds gun rights and gun control at complete odds, despite what the NRA would like you to think. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/88 "2009-12-14T17:47:14Z")
If Paul Helmke of the Brady campaign publicly states “I see our issues as complementary to theirs”, there is a problem. The largest organization lobbying to limit and in some cases eliminate gun rights in the United States has these guys in bed with them, and I’m supposed to accept that there is no problem with this? Pull someone else’s leg. I didn’t just fall off the turnip truck. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/89 "2009-12-14T17:55:12Z")
Considering their mandate appears to be solely limited to preserving hunting/sporting use of firearms - nothing about self-defense in there - they seem to be on the level. Of course, that doesn’t mean you have to like them, just that they do pretty much what it says on the box. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/90 "2009-12-14T17:57:24Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > Handguns always require a background check for transfer to this day in every jurisdiction I am aware of. You mean from a dealer? Private sales of handguns (whether at gun shows or elsewhere) aren’t regulated in a lot of states. Florida being one. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/91 "2009-12-14T18:27:59Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Are ninjas more dangerous than samurai as well? They blend in with their surroundings so much better. > If it is a registered gun then you have culpability. What else do you need? > > As an aside, if someone wants to kill someone they don’t necessarily need a gun, ya know. I guess you really are that dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/92 "2009-12-14T18:30:57Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Is there a gun rights organization out there I can join that doesn’t align itself so fundamentally with Republican candidates? The [Izaak Walton League](http://www.iwla.org)? Their focus is environmental conservation, but specifically to use the environment for sporting purposes like hunting (and fishing, and hiking, etc.). They’re very much pro-hunting, so natually they tend to be pro-gun as well. They (well… at least not my chapter) tend not to be the “gun nuts” associated with the NRA, nor are they tree-hugging environmentalists. But they are very much indeed pro-gun and pro-environmental. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/93 "2009-12-14T18:40:30Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > As an aside, if someone wants to kill someone they don’t necessarily need a gun, ya know. Well, this is certainly true. For example, if a guy cuts me off in traffic, and then blocks me in and flips me the bird, and finally gets out of his car to scream at me, I could follow him home, and then trail him for a few weeks to see where he shops, and what his favorite breakfast cereal is. I could then determine his schedule, and place a box of poisoned cereal on the shelf just when he has run out. When he eats the cereal, I would position myself outside his kitchen window, so I could yell out “Yes! In your face Mr. Road Rage Dude!!!” eta: When frooty-pops are outlawed, only outlaws will have frooty-pops. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/94 "2009-12-14T19:35:18Z")
This doesn’t get any less retarded with repetition. > [@DanBlather](#): > > And yet you advocate a society where every traffic accident, or dispute over a parking space, or someone insulting your wife, or a host of other personal slights could result in people pulling out their guns. You could just as easily say that any of those tense situations could potentially result in your shitting your pants, and act to ban pants-shitting, and it would make just as much sense. Or, perhaps more to the point, saying this to Airman of all people is like saying that pro-choice Democrats are advocating a society where newborn babies can be killed with saline injection if their parents change their minds. > [@](#): > > Where political rallies are places to bring rifles rather than debate, I’ve said so before, but probably not on the dope, that people who do this should be arrested for terroristic threats. Brandishing a naked, unholstered firearm is not acceptable behavior at a political event. > [@](#): > > where every police officer’s job becomes more dangerous, This is the point where we could easily descend into the hijack of how gun bans affect the availability of handguns to the criminal class and especially the subsection of the criminal class with intent to use said guns. > [@](#): > > every domestic argument has more potential for death, Balancing the scales between abuser and abused, whereas with no guns whoever’s stronger wins and that’s that. > [@](#): > > and suicides become more deadly. I can’t honestly say this last fact concerns me in the slightest, and I’ve been clinically depressed in the past and had multiple friends who attempted suicide. Look, I’m not a gun nut. I’m all for having the data, I wouldn’t mind if every gun in the country was registered on a list of who owned it, when they got it, etc, like cars. I’d be thrilled to see mandatory training and licensing, again similar to cars. My guns are locked behind two separate keyed locks, and I wouldn’t mind a requirement to make them combination locks or biometric+key if biometrics can be made as solidly reliable as they’d need to be. I’d love to see serious criminal penalties for the mere act of carrying a gun while intoxicated, and I would also love to see a law by which if your gun was stolen/transferred and you failed to report it and transfer the title, you got hit with both a felony for wrongful gun transfer AND automatically became a prima fascie accessory to any crime subsequently committed with that gun. All this, and all I ask is that you let us legal, peaceful firearm owners–whether for self-defense, sport, or both–continue to own our firearms legally and peacefully. Maybe I should start a PAC. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/95 "2009-12-14T20:31:29Z")
From [http://www.vpc.org/fact\_sht/domviofs.htm](http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm) > [@](#): > > In 2000, in homicides where the weapon was known, 50 percent (1,342 of 2,701) of female homicide victims were killed with a firearm. Of those female firearm homicides, 1,009 women (75 percent) were killed with a handgun. > > More than five times as many women were murdered by an intimate acquaintance (605) than by a stranger (113) in the year 2000. Additionally, while firearm homicides involving male victims were mostly intra-gender, 95 percent of female firearm homicide victims were murdered by a male… > > The circumstances of firearms violence differ significantly between men and women. Compared to a man, a woman is far more likely to be killed by her spouse, an intimate acquaintance, or a family member than murdered by a stranger or an unidentified intruder. A 1976 to 1987 analysis of Federal Bureau of Investigation data revealed that more than twice as many women were shot and killed by their husbands or intimate acquaintances than were murdered by strangers using firearms, knives, or any other means… > > Having a gun in the home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member or intimate partner. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/96 "2009-12-14T21:26:38Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I love this sort of reasoning. It is so irrational as to be almost breathtaking. It should be on a museum wall someplace. It’s weird how you throw out these hypebolic terms, but then fail to actually demonstrate in what way they’re irrational. > [@](#): > > Personally, I am concerned about my safety first rather than my right to defend myself. I’d rather have a society in which fewer criminals had access to easily concealable guns then the ability for me to kill them once they threaten me. Having the right to defend yourself (either generally, as I mentioned with retreat in your home laws, etc or with a gun) does not need to be directly inversely correlated with the legal widespread presence of guns. The vast majority of people support laws that target criminals and criminal use of guns specifically. A gun law that restricted ownership has far more effect on you (the responsible owner) than the criminal threat you’re concerned about, disarming you without removing the threat - and because criminals obviously don’t need guns to be a threat to you. For some people, they function as an equalizer - a 100 pound woman may not have any viable way to defend herself from a 200 pound man except through the use of weapons. There seems to be an unstated assumption here that if there were laws passed against gun ownership then no one would face any threats - therefore, duh, you don’t need guns when the same law eliminates any danger to you!!!111 > [@](#): > > This is what I see as wrong with the gun nuts. You live for the day when you will be in a situation to pull out your gun so you can justify all the money and time you’ve spent on your fetish. Maybe you are against gun control to make that more likely. This is what makes it hard to have conversations with, and tolate laws being written by, people like yourself. It’s hard to have a reasonable discussion when you have such obnoxious ideas about the nature of your opponent. Imagine Obama trying to have a reasoned debate with Orly Taitz… > [@](#): > > I remember the days when only police officers and security guards thought it necessary to carry handguns. When ads for rifles in Boys Life were about hunting and target shooting. These days guns are marketed to yahoos who want to “defend themselves” or guard against the black helicopters. The popularity of hunting is dwindling but gun sales are up. This is a sick society. Maye it won’t change until there is a raft of political assassinations of conservatives like there was of liberals in the 60s. Oh come on - society is just about better than it’s ever been. Gun ownership rates have been going up, yet accident rates and crime rates have been on a downslope for decades. Your fantasy does not fit with reality. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/97 "2009-12-14T21:29:01Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > And I’m aware that an occasional southern Democrat gets the NRA nod, but on a national level, they have never, to my recollection, supported a Democratic presidential candidate over his Republican opponent, and by pushing the ‘third world dictators and Hillary Clinton’ crap they’re undermining the current administration with falsehood. Has there ever been a democratic presidential c andidate that was more pro-gun-rights than his republican opponent? That seems to be a requirement here. Otherwise should the NRA endorse a democrat that has a harsher gun control stance every once in a while just to make it seem balanced between the parties? > [@duality72](#): > > Another alternative organization: [American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA)](http://www.huntersandshooters.com/). It even endorsed Obama for president, which may or may not be good to you, but definitely shows they are of a different mind than the NRA. Their list of values: They didn’t “even” endorse Obama for president. They were created to endorse Obama for president. It’s a shill organization that lives up to the standard democrat divide and conquer bullshit “don’t worry, these gun bans aren’t after your duck guns!”. It was created so that democrats could say “the hunters and shooters association supports me!” It has no legitimate standing among anyone I know. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/98 "2009-12-14T21:30:36Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > From [http://www.vpc.org/fact\_sht/domviofs.htm](http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/domviofs.htm) You see “women are victimized by guns”, I see “more women need to get a gun and defend themselves.” ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/99 "2009-12-14T21:48:11Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > This is what I see as wrong with the gun nuts. You live for the day when you will be in a situation to pull out your gun so you can justify all the money and time you’ve spent on your fetish. Apparently in your mind “responsible gun owner” = “gun nut”. I pray I will never, ever, have to defend myself with one of my firearms. I’ll be perfectly happy to live out my days having shot nothing more than what I already do: paper targets and clay pigeons. But then again I’m not a gun nut, I’m just a run-of-the-mill responsible gun owner. And user. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/100 "2009-12-14T21:54:00Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > They didn’t “even” endorse Obama for president. They were created to endorse Obama for president. They were founded in 2005. That’s nearly as much foresight as the people who put the fake birth announcements in Honolulu newspapers! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881.md?page=6)