# Pitting the NRA **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881 "2009-12-11T17:48:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/161 "2009-12-16T14:38:24Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > 1. More generally, the tenor of the AWB is such that people who are not knowledgeable about firearms think it implies that full-auto military weapons were available right up until the AWB was passed, because without reading the text of the bill the plain meaning of “Assault Weapons” indicates something other than what it means in the text of the bill itself. This increases the overall level of fear of guns, which I think might have been the real goal. I’d happily sign a petition against misleadingly named Congressional bills. Like the ‘Patriot Act’. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/162 "2009-12-16T14:40:55Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > The NRA push poll is dispicable. And if I was a member, I would cancel membership It is however, very similar to the misinformation tactics used by those that would ban guns. This has been said and implied by a couple of folks, and while this is only anecdotal, I have to say that every piece of distorted propaganda on this topic I have been subjected to (with the exception of ‘Bowling for Columbine’) has been the propaganda fighting against gun control, not for it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/163 "2009-12-16T14:45:29Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > What you said was this: > > “Most US gun enthusiasts?” Really? Your posts have struck me as being those of a person who for whichever side was right, or wrong, would not have made that biased and unsupportable generalization. I don’t know a single, solitary gun owner IRL who thinks that, in fact I’ve never met one, and I’ve been around for some time. > > And as far as your SDMB thread and the disappointment you’ve had in there…remember, this is the SDMB. It’s not even close to real life. This is bizarro-world here. > > I think you didn’t post what you really wanted to say. I stand by my original post that the original statement you made is surprising. Hopefully you can see why I feel that way. The NRA fights tooth and nail to block any type of gun registration legislation or extensions to the waiting period. He could be forgiven for assuming this means American gun owners would like to be able to grab a gun off the shelf at the gas station along with a pack of smokes. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/164 "2009-12-16T14:52:05Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Why is the AWB so hated? I agree it is stupid, but why are people so upset about the restrictions? Do the really want to have a bayonet attachment, or flash suppressor, or whatever the hell is in the bill? Does it restrict anything that a serious hunter or target shooter would want? In a way. yes. One of the match series I compete in is for military rifles. The rules state that you cannot change the firearms from its original form; remove parts to improve balance or replace parts with more precise aftermarket versions. Your gun must be as issued. The whole DCM thing and others is suddenly outlawed. And that doesn’t even touch those who collect firearms without intending to use them. Make the “defining part” something like a bayonet lug and the 30-40 Krag and Brown Bess muskets go the same way as the AK or FN. I know that’s not what you want to ban but badly worded those are the kinds of things that get banned. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/165 "2009-12-16T15:53:07Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > I’d happily sign a petition against misleadingly named Congressional bills. Like the ‘Patriot Act’. I think you’ll find that many pro-gun types are just as angry about the Patriot Act as you are–I’m on a few mailing lists for varying stripes of politics, and every single one of the “conservative” ones except for the official Republican ones have been hammering on the “write your congresspeople to ask them to allow ALL Patriot Act provisions to sunset” for the last month, almost as hard as they’re hammering anti-healthcare reform (the idiots). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/166 "2009-12-16T15:59:18Z")
Yes, but they’re only angry about the Patriot Act _now_. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/167 "2009-12-16T16:19:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, but they’re only angry about the Patriot Act _now_. That’s actually not true of all of them–I keep tabs on some pretty libertarian circles that were perfectly happy to bash the hell out of Bush on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/168 "2009-12-16T16:56:45Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Fair enough, fair enough. When I start that new political group that is open to registration/licensing/training that doesn’t actually impair law-abiding gun ownership, I’ll invite you to the board of directors. Deal! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/169 "2009-12-16T17:22:43Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > That’s actually not true of all of them–I keep tabs on some pretty libertarian circles that were perfectly happy to bash the hell out of Bush on a regular basis. Sure, but I doubt that represents the majority or even a plurality of mainstream gun owners. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/170 "2009-12-16T17:37:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sure, but I doubt that represents the majority or even a plurality of mainstream gun owners. Based on the gun owners I personally know out here in central Pennsylvania, both “town/university” folks in State College and the folks where my parents and family live in Clearfield/Jefferson counties, the split is surprisingly close to the general political one–that is, I find that gun ownership/gun rights support isn’t really strongly correlated with any other given political position. If anything, gun ownership tends to be correlated with both the independents/moderates and the extreme libertarians out here more than anything else out here. I suspect unfortunately that there’s selection bias at work here, and that you’re probably right in the general case. I’d like to hope otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/171 "2009-12-16T17:44:37Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Deal! The scary thing is that this isn’t really implausible given the number of early-to-mid-30s Washington insiders I know. Really, IMHO, all the “register them and require training” thing does is enforce the “well-regulated” sense that the Framers most likely meant–that is, Merriam-Webster definition 2 of “regulated” – “to bring order, method, or uniformity to”–which, given the status of the state militias historically, is more relevant to training and skill than specifics of weapon types etc. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/172 "2009-12-16T19:46:51Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So apparently Dan and I have approximately the same views on gun control (required training and licensing, titles tracked like cars). So why did the tone of his rhetoric prior to post 133 have to be so infuriatingly insulting to gun owners? It is a mystery. Because he’s an asshole? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/173 "2009-12-16T20:41:52Z")
Interesting survey of NRA and non-NRA gun owners (pdf): [http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/luntz\_poll\_questionnaire\_and\_responses.pdf](http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/luntz_poll_questionnaire_and_responses.pdf) Got the link from today’s LA Times editorial page, which had this to say about it all: > [@](#): > > Why are the NRA’s leaders more absolutist than its members? At least in part because they have a financial incentive. It’s a common practice by the NRA to send out mailers when a firearms-related bill is proposed that exaggerate its provisions and claim that lawmakers are out to grab guns from law-abiding citizens. Inciting hysteria is a surefire way of increasing contributions, but when NRA members learn that these efforts are really focused at keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, they tend to support them. Knowing this won’t change the behavior of the NRA’s leadership, but it should help give lawmakers the courage to stand up to the organization. By simply countering NRA propaganda with facts, they can persuade liberals and conservatives alike to back sensible gun-control measures. > **[Gun control's NRA supporters](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-dec-16-la-ed-guns16-2009dec16-story.html)** > > Gun control's NRA supporters So, in the real world NRA MEMBERS are happy to have sensible gun control. However, the NRA as an organization makes more money fundraising with scare tactics (like every other organization out there). I would like to say that those NRA members happy to have sensible gun control still don’t necessarily trust anyone WRITING the gun control legislation. The reason the instant background check system works and is supported is that the NRA got behind it and made sure that it made sense. They also asked to make sure that the mental health data get into as well. That is the NRA trying to keep guns out of the wrong hands. The HCI / Brady Center folks want to take guns out of everyone’s hands. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/174 "2009-12-16T21:16:10Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > Because he’s an asshole? He did cop to it, you gotta give him that. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/175 "2009-12-16T23:50:58Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > He did cop to it, you gotta give him that. And I’m not one to be pointing fingers, either. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/176 "2009-12-16T23:55:47Z")
Well, **Zeriel** , where are our applications? I don’t own any guns and don’t want any, but I wish to join your PAC. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/177 "2009-12-17T02:16:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > We’ve had pages and pages of threads on here countering all of your points, and there’s no reason to turn this thread into Generic Gun Control Thread #58125. > > I do think self defense is obviously a basic human right, and I do think there’s a correlation between gun ownership and self defense - both in the obvious practical sense, and also in the sense that societies that tend to limit private ownership of guns (or restrict that ownership to only sporting purposes) also tend to be restrictive of the right of self defense more generally. Along with a dismissive stance on personal responsibility towards self defense often come requirements that you flee rather than fight, arresting people who killed someone in self defense, creating a society in which the expectation is that you essentially shut down and become a sheep and wait for the police to show up rather than take ultimate responsibility for your own defense. What if there is no place to flee to, or the bad guy is simply faster? As for killing in self defense, that should be an open and shut case, so long as it WAS defense. > **[Duty to retreat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_retreat)** > > In law, the duty to retreat, or requirement of safe retreat,: 550  is a legal requirement in some jurisdictions that a threatened person cannot harm another in self-defense (especially lethal force) when it is possible instead to retreat to a place of safety.: 549–554  This requirement contrasts with some other jurisdictions to stand one's ground, meaning being allowed to defend one's self instead of retreating. > It is a specific component which sometimes appears in the criminal defense of self-d... \*Some American jurisdictions require that a person retreat from an attack, and allow the use of deadly force in self defense only when retreat is not possible or when retreat poses a danger to the person under attack. The duty to retreat is not universal, however. For example, police officers are not required to retreat when acting in the line of duty. Similarly, some courts have found no duty to retreat exists when victim is assaulted in a place where the victim has a right to be, such as within one’s own home. State v. Allery, 101 Wash.2d 591, 682 P.2d 312 (1984). The Model Penal Code § 3.04(2)(b)(ii) suggests statutory language that also recognizes an exception to the usual duty to retreat when the victim of the attack is in his or her own dwelling or place of work. Many states employ “stand your ground” laws that do not require an individual to retreat and allow one to match force for force, deadly force for deadly force. … In English law the focus of the test is whether the defendant is acting reasonably in the particular situation. There is no specific requirement that a person must retreat in anticipation of an attack. Although some withdrawal would be useful evidence to prove that the defendant did not want to fight, not every defendant is able to escape. In R v Bird (1985) 1 WLR 816 the defendant was physically attacked, and reacted instinctively and immediately without having the opportunity to retreat. Had there been a delay in the response, the reaction might have appeared more revenge than self-defence. It might be different if the defendant sees an enemy approaching and decides to stand his ground. The answer may depend on where the threat is recognised. In a public place, where there are many other people present, a judgment must be made on whether an attack is imminent.\* Personally, I don’t believe in the “duty to retreat”. I want the “option to retreat” (if I can). I would like to get away, but I sure don’t want to get locked up just because I was caught by surprise or because the other guy runs faster. When the law takes away the right for a person to defend themselves, the law has gone wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/178 "2009-12-17T03:53:55Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Why is the AWB so hated? I agree it is stupid, but why are people so upset about the restrictions? Do the really want to have a bayonet attachment, or flash suppressor, or whatever the hell is in the bill? Does it restrict anything that a serious hunter or target shooter would want? It’s got nothing to do with hunters or target shooters, fuck 'em. It has to do with banning cosmetic features that in no way enhance the lethality of the gun in question and the legions of supporters who think that the AWB applied to the full auto guns they see on TV. The only thing stupider than supporting the AWB is believing that there is a “gun show loop hole.” ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/179 "2009-12-17T04:09:14Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > It’s got nothing to do with hunters or target shooters, fuck 'em. It has to do with banning cosmetic features that in no way enhance the lethality of the gun in question and the legions of supporters who think that the AWB applied to the full auto guns they see on TV. > > The only thing stupider than supporting the AWB is believing that there is a “gun show loop hole.” Just what IS this “assault weapon”? Is it a small caliber rifle that LOOKS SCARY? Maybe it’s one with ummmm skulls and bones and notches on it? Is it a 50 caliber expensive rifle? Is it a semiauto? Or clip fed? Is it capable of auto fire, or are there semiautos on The List too? Is it like all dark and ominous looking? If I’m all out of bullets and club someone with it, is it still an “assault weapon” (I mean clubbing is considered assault)? Nahhhh, it’s a bullshit phrase invented to scare people. There are rifles, shotguns, revolvers, pistols, flintlocks, wheel locks, cap n ball, center fire, rim fire, all sorts of things that go bang. Just what makes it an Assault Weapon??? No such thing. It’s just a scary catch phrase that politicians use to rile people up and get votes. ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881/180 "2009-12-17T04:28:44Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > What if there is no place to flee to, or the bad guy is simply faster? As for killing in self defense, that should be an open and shut case, so long as it WAS defense. A recent [incident](http://www.ocala.com/article/20091216/ARTICLES/912161011/1402/NEWS?Title=The-latest-on-the-fatal-home-invasion-). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-nra/520881.md?page=10)