# Pitting The Republican for no reason whatsoever **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2003, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920 "2003-08-18T06:36:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/181 "2003-08-21T03:13:56Z")
Scylla, your obtuseness is stupefying. For those in the audience whose brains still function, I present [John Kerry on the issues](http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/). In addition to discussing his record and his experience, there are all kinds of specific position statements in there. Here’s a random sampling: > [@](#): > > Kerry believes that renewable energy, grown on America’s farms and produced in producer-owned facilities, must be part of America’s energy future. It will reduce pollution and our dependence on oil. The federal government must lead the way by funding research and development and by creating a national market for renewable fuels. > [@](#): > > States are struggling under the worst fiscal crisis in decades and are facing a cumulative budget gap of $90 billion next year. Across the country critical education, public safety and health programs have been slashed, workers have been laid off and taxes have been raised in order to balance state budgets. John Kerry has made it a priority to get fiscal help to the states. > [@](#): > > The current patchwork of tax credits and grant programs to help pay for some of college expenses should be replaced by a comprehensive plan to make four years of college affordable for all. > [@](#): > > Enforce Environmental Laws: John Kerry knows that the strongest environmental laws will be ineffective if the Administration slashes the support to enforce those laws and looks the other way while corporations continue to pollute. Kerry will strengthen the environmental cop-on-the-beat, and prosecute environmental criminals. He will also actively pursue environmental justice for communities that have been the victims of years of corporate environmental assaults. > [@](#): > > “We now know that the Administration went to war without a thorough plan to win the peace” he said in recent remarks on Capitol Hill. “It is time to face that truth and to change course—to share the post-war burden internationally—for the sake of our country, for our standing in the world, and most of all for the young Americans in uniform.” By involving NATO, troops from other countries, and the United Nations, Senator Kerry believes that we can best achieve our goal of helping the Iraqi people to create a stable and democratic Iraq, while reducing the burden on our military and making America more secure by increasing our ability to combat terrorism. > [@](#): > > He believes that America must be actively engaged in working towards a peaceful solution of the Middle East conflict that ensures Israel’s security while eventually providing for an independent Palestinian State. “American engagement and successful mediation are not only essential to peace in this war-torn area,” he said, “but also critical to the success of our own efforts against terrorism.” In order to address the root causes of terrorism, Senator Kerry advocates implementing measures to improve social, economic, and political conditions throughout the Middle East as part of a comprehensive multilateral effort to move the region towards the modern world and away from Islamic fundamentalism. “What we need in the Middle East is an aggressive, proactive, superengaged, leveraged kind of diplomacy that agrees on how we can move them to modernity and in fact invests in it,” he said. “In the next few years, if changes aren’t made, the potential for violence in that region will only increase…We must give countries in the Middle East a reason to want peace.” And the hell with that “central theme” shit. This is the Straight Dope. We deal with issues, not soundbites. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/182 "2003-08-21T03:32:27Z")
**Scylla** , I’m not sure what to say, as I am quite confused about what you were trying to convey. On the one hand, it’s okay if I think you’re a racist, but on the other, fuck me if it changes how I respond to you? I guess, in sum, all I can say to that is, “Truly you have a dizzying intellect.” And, in kind, I say, thank you and fuck you too. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/183 "2003-08-21T03:32:52Z")
Minty: > [@](#): > > Scylla, your obtuseness is stupefying. Don’t blame me for your stupefecation. I’m not asking you for a link to the issue that I’ve been at three times. I’m asking for his **theme** his **central message** I have characterized the link to your quotations as boilerplate. I’ll take them in order. 1. Wants renewable energy. Whee! How boilerplate can you get? What candidate doesn’t want renewable energy? 2. Wants to help fiscal problems. Whee! Again what candidate says they don’t? 3, Affordable college (some socialized plan.) Ok. That’s something. Would you characterize this as his central message? If so, how do you compare it with the fact that he’s not mentioning it a whole bunch compared to say… two other things I could name? 1. Tough on the environment. Looks like boilerplate to me. 2. Bush messed up. He’ll fix it. (yes, this is half of a central theme I’ve identified.) 3. Advocates doing vague good things for peace in the mideast. Again, who isn’t saying this? Boilerplate. Don’t call me obtuse or stupefying when you’re answering a different question than the one I’m asking. I’m not looking for his generic issue statements. I didn’t ask for them. Please stop giving them to me. > [@](#): > > And the hell with that “central theme” shit. This is the Straight Dope. We deal with issues, not soundbites. It’s not a soundbite, and it’s not shit. If you don’t want to or can’t provide it, fine. To sit there and repeatedly answer a different question than the one that was asked when I went to the trouble to give you examples, and then to call me obtuse or stupefying because of your failure to answer said simple question is disingenous and unwhorthy. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/184 "2003-08-21T03:41:36Z")
I have no fucking idea what Kerry’s “ **theme** his **central message** ” is, nor do I care, nor does it matter one tiny little bit. Your original beef was that he had no substance. That’s been disproven to any sane person’s satisfaction. Now you’re complaining that he has no theme. What’s next, Kerry’s haircut? More proof that **Hentor** had you completely nailed. Pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/185 "2003-08-21T12:05:17Z")
A theme, huh? Hmmmmmm. “Lara’s Song” from _Dr. Zhivago_? Nah, too gooey, alienates men. “Ballad of the Green Berets”? Too overt. “Flight of the Valkyrie”? Bit over the top. Ah! “Don’t Get Fooled Again” by The Who. Perfect. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/186 "2003-08-21T12:08:16Z")
Same as the old boss. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/187 "2003-08-21T12:20:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Two trends: > > The rise to ubiquity of The CoulterBeast’s image, voice, and opinion. > > The upsurge of young men enlisting in the Homosexual Agenda. > > Coincidence? I wonder… \*\* Personally, I always envision Annie in dominatrix garb. Um, did I actually type that or just think it? Shit. It’s not that I want her to beat me, I just think she would. “Liberal on the social issues? Lick my boots! McCarthy wasn’t up there with Thomas Jefferson?! 10 lashes!” and so on. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/188 "2003-08-21T12:26:41Z")
Wait, though. If Big John has a musical theme, wouldn’t GeeDubya need one as well? One that emphasizes his military career? Thats a tough one… Did the movie _Chicken Run_ have any theme music? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/189 "2003-08-21T12:31:26Z")
Urgent message for **Beagle** : Adjust your medication _immediately_! If you don’t have any, get some. If pharmacueticals are not available, “herbal” remedies will not, repeat, _not_ be adequate. Recommend full bottle of Nyquil and several stiff shots of tequila. Sure, it might be fatal, but this is an _emergency_! ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/190 "2003-08-21T13:12:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > Sorry, but clients were simply dying to be billed this morning. I searched CNN, found a couple polls that supported my general proposition, and left it at that. I don’t care what your excuse is for not finding proper cites. If your going to attack my cites, next time be sure that yours aren’t worse. > [@](#): > > And note that one of my cites was dated March 6, a mere 10 days before the start of that IMHO thread. 10 days before, when the polls were much lower in support of the war. Also you posted a link from Feb when they were also much lower. This was done deliberately dishonestly on your part. There is lots of polling data available with dates much closer than the ones you chose. > [@](#): > > But for what it’s worth, here’s [a CBS poll](http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/CBSNews_polls/iraq_back0322.pdf) that directly compares responses on March 15-16 with responses on March 20-21. The results show significantly higher support after the war began. It’s not in dispute that the numbers got higher once the war began. My first post with cites about the polling numbers included some from before, and some after the start of the war just to illustrate this. I notice here you didn’t mention the actual support numbers from that link. Mar 15-16: 67 % approve Mar 20-21: 76 % approve Considering the IMHO poll took place from Mar 17-20th, that looks like those numbers back me up on my “nearly 80%” claim. Even your own cites prove you wrong. > [@](#): > > Yeah, you and like three other people chimed in on the 20th. Pretty weak for a 5-page thread where 75% of the responses were entered within the first 48 hours. You really reaching here. The poll took place from the 17th till the 20th. Your cites were off by 10 days and over a month. Yet the fact that most posters posted on a specific date is supposed to be enough to mock my cites which were as close to the right dates as I could find. You have posted deliberately misleading cites. Still now, you post a cite but don’t quote the actual data on it that proves you wrong. All the while you accuse me of lying. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/191 "2003-08-21T13:22:58Z")
Are you retarded, Debaser? First, the IMHO poll was, as has been stated multiple times, started on MARCH 16, and the large majority of its responses were in by MARCH 18. Second, you cherry-picked your data from that poll I provided. You quoted question 6, which asked: > [@](#): > > Do you approve or disapprove of the United States taking military action against Iraq to try to remove Saddam Hussein from power? Note that the positive responses to that question rose 9% in just the few days between the polls, just as I said they did. But more important, you ignore the crystal-clear evidence that _how the question is phrased determines the outcome of the poll_. Right after question 6 is question 11 (don’t ask me why): > [@](#): > > Do you think removing Saddam Hussein from power is worth the potential loss of American life and other costs of attacking Iraq, or not? The responses to _that_ question were entirely different: a bare majority (54%) thought it was “worth” doing on March 15-16, and that rose to 62% approval on March 20-21. Again, a substantial increase in just the few days immediately before the war started, but nowhere near the overwhelming 80% approval that you falsely claimed. So, which question did the IMHO thread more closely resemble? “Approve or disapprove” or "worth the loss of American lives and other costs? Beats me. But it’s clear that you’re picking and choosing your data to prop up your own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/192 "2003-08-21T13:28:20Z")
Is this a good time to say I could give a shit about what the polls say and what you think it means? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/193 "2003-08-21T14:05:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Urgent message for **Beagle** : Adjust your medication _immediately_! If you don’t have any, get some. If pharmacueticals are not available, “herbal” remedies will not, repeat, _not_ be adequate. Recommend full bottle of Nyquil and several stiff shots of tequila. > > Sure, it might be fatal, but this is an _emergency_! \*\* It’s an early morning thing. I guess when the dream world crosses over into reality it’s not hard to imagine Annie with a little black leather SS, biker, dominatrix hat giving orders. Coffee is about all the medication I can handle this early. Get back with me about 11 PM when the unwanted energy burst kicks in. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/194 "2003-08-21T14:23:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > Is this a good time to say I could give a shit about what the polls say and what you think it means? Hey, anytime’s a good time to say you could give a shit about what the polls say and what I think it means. 'Course, I wasn’t talking to you, and it is directly relevant to the alleged liberal bias that allegedly led people to allegedly unfairly slam a poor innocent conservative newbie who allegedly never did anything wrong to anybody. So there. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/195 "2003-08-21T15:32:31Z")
**minty** , the question asked in the thread was > [@](#): > > Should we go to war? Clearly the question from the poll you linked to that most closely resembled this was: > [@](#): > > Do you approve or disapprove of the United States taking military action against Iraq to try to remove Saddam Hussein from power? Not this one: > [@](#): > > Do you think removing Saddam Hussein from power is worth the potential loss of American life and other costs of attacking Iraq, or not? If you can’t see this, I will simply leave you to fumble in the darkness of your own blindness. I’m not going to touch the dates issue anymore. You post dates a month away and blast me for posting dates 4 days away. You can’t even find a cite that doesn’t back up my numbers. You really need to give it up. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/196 "2003-08-21T15:49:02Z")
Yep, you’re retarded. Ta ta. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/197 "2003-08-21T17:28:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > Did the movie _Chicken Run_ have any theme music? Yeah, but nothing memorable, IMO. Try the title theme from Jay Ward’s _Super Chicken_ cartoon instead. The clucking alone makes it perfect for the subject. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/198 "2003-08-21T18:11:48Z")
Minty, As an outside observer, MHO only, Debaser has blown you away on this one. His/Her polls and data were provided in a timely manner, and again, MHO only, more than adequately support his/her contentions, both by their numbers and their dates, which are far closer to the thread in question than yours were. You might have a point about support going up after the shooting started…except Debaser brought it up first and countered with poll numbers just before and just after the SDMB thread that backed what he/she was saying, and coincidentaly straddled the start of the war at the same time. Debaser, so I can stop typing he/she, are your reproductive organs internal or external? ---
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/199 "2003-08-21T18:24:41Z")
Actually, rumour has it the Bush campaign will go with _Stand by Your man_ as its campaign theme song. There was some early support for the more triumphalist _We Are The Champions_, however the neo-cons were put off by its association with monarchy and the religious conservatives thought it had something to do with gay rights so the idea was dropped. I have it on good authority that Dean’s campaign theme will be a specially-produced version of _Who Let The Dogs [of war] Out?_ ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920/200 "2003-08-21T21:31:59Z")
I’m male. And, thanks, **Weirddave**. I had a nice reply to **mintys** last two posts calling me “retarded” all typed up. His mother and some colorful profanity were included. However, the closest anyone can come to actually winning a debate these days is having the other guy lose it and start shouting insults at you. I felt it best to just leave things be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-republican-for-no-reason-whatsoever/195920.md?page=11)