# Pitting the Washington Post for glorifying ignorance and stupidity **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371 "2014-10-24T17:43:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/61 "2014-10-24T21:58:35Z")
Having been one of the ‘I have no sofa’ types in the past, and may be again in the near future…I have little sympathy. I would have some sympathy…if she hadn’t doubled and tripled down on the stupidity. Cigarettes cost money. If she smokes a pack a day (which seems to be the norm)…say cigs are 4 bucks a pack in Alabama or Arkansas…if she quits than she is 3/4 of the way to being able to make the payments on the sofa! If you are low-wage or living on the dole (which I make no judgments about), then you _must_ be prudent. I have used road-kill furniture. I have shopped at Goodwill and Salvation Army. Many of us at one time or another have had to forgo luxuries in favor of necessities. If you are poor, I have empathy. Been there, may be again. If you are poor and buy a fucking smartphone with new speakers on usury credit , and then whine about it…nah, fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/62 "2014-10-24T22:06:51Z")
And there is plenty that can be done. Stores should display the full price, not the per-week price. People should be given back a portion of items that have been reprocessed, if those items are resold. If someone is near the end of their payment period and cannot afford a few payments, they should be able to work out a payment plan. But really, these companies need to be shut down. They exploit a loophole that should be closed for the exact same reasons that we shut usury down. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/63 "2014-10-24T22:09:02Z")
> [@Misnomer](#): > > Did you hurt yourself when you jumped to that conclusion? :dubious: > > Someone buying only ramen noodles and hot dog buns on a Wal-Mart trip is not “eating so much extra food.” The sad fact is that the cheapest food is often also the least healthy: a lot of poor people are overweight because [they can’t afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables, lean meats, etc](http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/05/opinion/granderson-poverty-health/). Combine that with a disease that [could make physical activity painful](http://www.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/psoriasis/psoriasis-symptoms), and frankly I’m surprised she’s not _more_ overweight. Hey, **Chetumal** , our panties are still bunched about this point until we read your rebuttal. Please, don’t let us down! Tell us again why being obese is relevant to your rant? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/64 "2014-10-24T22:10:10Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Something that always bugs me in these arguments is the scorn heaped upon the dumb. > > Some people are dumb. What should they do? Just get smarter? Pray to the intelligence fairy? Stop existing? Being slow is not a moral failing. It’s just a reality, and surely we can do something better for people who apparently can’t multiply than gleefully fleece them out of their last dollar. > > I think what is being missed here is the symbolic value of a sofa. When you know your poverty is temporary, and that you have the resources to eventually get out of said poverty, doing without a sofa seems prudent-- you know it will lead to improvement down the road. The sofa doesn’t mean much to you. Indeed, it may even feel like motivation. Let’s rally the troops and get to the point that we can go to Ikea. > > But when you feel that your poverty is permanent, that the life you have now is the best that it’s going to be, it’s a completely different trade off. You don’t see it as “no sofa now leads to more stuff later.” You see it as “I can have my kids on lawn chairs, or I can have a sofa like a normal family for a while and maybe even hold on to it.” The issue is: protection versus loss of freedom to make bad choices, for the poor. On the one hand, the state could take away the temptation by outlawing such businesses as usurous. This will, effectively, mean people with bad credit cannot get such products unless they save up cash. On the other hand, just as some may find the exploitation of the poor (and foolish) through usury objectionable, others may find prohibiting the poor from accessing credit objectionable: a form of paternalism. Myself, I’m kinda ambivalent. Though I lean towards preferring there be at least some paternalism. BTW, this is not by any means a problem of the poor alone - though the poor, with bad credit ratings, are naturally subject to the most usury; many of the people I know, with above-average incomes (in many cases, far above average) are apparently compelled by the temptation of consumer goods to live far above their means, in effect living paycheque to paycheque with (too) much going out in the form of payments for mortagres, car leases, and the like. These are people who are otherwise very intelligent … and I expect their financial plights would arouse even more scorn and derision than those of the poor. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/65 "2014-10-24T22:14:46Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Yes. Yes it is. So why is it legal to charge her 4 times more in interest than it would be to buy the item outright? > > Yes, she’s a very high risk to lend to, because she’s an idiot. Therefore, you’d have to charge her much higher interest rates because her chance of defaulting is extremely high, because she’s an idiot. But to lend her money at the appropriate risk level means you’d have to charge her more than she can afford, lots more, because she’s an idiot. Therefore there’s no way you can lend this woman money ethically. You shouldn’t be allowed to lend her money because she doesn’t understand money, because she’s an idiot. Why is it okay to deny service to someone because of some immutable characteristic they have like stupidness? Should this person also not be able to enter contracts, seek employment, or make decisions for themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/66 "2014-10-24T22:24:56Z")
If this article was only supposed to shine a light upon a situation, without being slanted against the store, it would just be a story of seemingly stupid people doing stupid stuff, and what would be the point of that? I would be for requiring the store to list “Total of payments” next to current price, to allow people to make better informed decisions. But, if in the story the woman said “I knew the eventually total would be WAY more than the purchase price, but I really wanted that couch” would everyone posting here say “Well, she knew the costs, and she still bought it so she is just stupid and I have no sympathy for her” ? I fail to see how that decision is any less stupid than blindly entering an agreement where you don’t know the total cost. In fact, it seems even MORE stupid because you can’t use “I didn’t know” as an excuse, and aren’t some of you advocating protecting stupid people from themselves? so apparently, this wouldn’t work either. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/67 "2014-10-24T22:26:55Z")
> [@Chetumal](#): > > As I posted upthread, perfectly decent sofas can be had cheaply at thrift stores, or even FREE via freecyle or craigslist. … Sure. It’s not like bedbugs have made a massive comeback the past few years or anything. There’s no way in hell I would trust curbside/Craigslist/Freecycle/Kijiji sofas that are FREE. :: Shudder :: I’d be dubious about many for sale, too; it’s less likely, but there are shitstains out there who wouldn’t hesitate to sell someone their bedbug-infested sofa. Thrift stores wouldn’t intentionally scam like that, but they can’t always closely inspect donations (especially when baby bedbugs are just 1/16"). Then a poor/low-income family has bedbugs, which can spread to other parts of the house. Eradicating bedbugs from a single home [can cost thousands of dollars](http://www.mprnews.org/story/2010/09/03/bedbugs) (if they had that much money, they wouldn’t need to get a secondhand sofa in the first place). Ooooh, and due to the (false but widespread) belief that bedbugs infest mainly dirty, slovenly areas, combined with societal attitudes that the poor are dirty/scruffy/shabby/gross, they’ll get to have even more contemptuous scorn heaped upon them. Sounds fun to me! ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/68 "2014-10-24T22:40:19Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Why is it okay to deny service to someone because of some immutable characteristic they have like stupidness? Should this person also not be able to enter contracts, seek employment, or make decisions for themselves? No. Dumb people should have the freedom to enter into stupid contracts. But businesses should not have the freedom to offer stupid contracts. There’s a difference. If you can’t lend money to stupid people at non-predatory interest rates, then fuck you. You’re not allowed to lend. If that means stupid people can’t go deeply into debt paying interest on items they don’t need, then that’s bad…why? Is it paternalistic? Yes. If someone can’t figure out why these deals are so horrible, or can’t stop themselves from agreeing to these deals event though they know the deal is horrible, then they’re obviously to stupid to be allowed to agree to such a deal. Do we need to declare them incompetent and appoint a guardian for them? How about we just make it illegal to blatantly exploit them? Again, the proof that they’re too stupid to be allowed to make this decision is the fact that they made this decision. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/69 "2014-10-24T22:44:45Z")
So if someone can’t get a loan from any regular sources to fix their car so they can get to work, and there are no businesses that lend money at high rates due to risk, what would you tell those people to do? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/70 "2014-10-24T22:58:45Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > There are plenty of white dumbasses. > > Every time legislation is proposed against usurious businesses like these, their wealthy owners buy off enough legislators to stay in business. Except that some of the worst offenders (“payday” loan outfits) have been the subject of [crackdowns](http://www.ncsl.org/research/financial-services-and-commerce/payday-lending-state-statutes.aspx) in many states. Schools should do more to prepare young people to be reasonably smart consumers. It’s not easy though if your target group drops out of school in 9th grade. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/71 "2014-10-24T23:32:37Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Why is it okay to deny service to someone because of some immutable characteristic they have like stupidness? Should this person also not be able to enter contracts, seek employment, or make decisions for themselves? You’re looking for some sort of absolutist principle, and I think that way lies madness. Instead, there needs to be a balance. As I understand it, about 30% of Americans have an IQ of 90 or less. About 5% have an IQ of 80 or less. If there’s a business whose customers are overwhelmingly people who are dumb, I have no problem with limiting the ways that business does business. Allowing such limits does not mean that suddenly the government is going to price-control every couch purchase in the land. It means that we have to decide where we set the limit. Right now, we allow contracts that are more predatory than I think we should allow. I think we should rein in such businesses, along with businesses like payday lenders and for-profit colleges, because they offer terrible products. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/72 "2014-10-24T23:39:20Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > You quoted part of my post but omitted this: Yes, even the NRA is in awe of the powerful sofa rent-to-own lobby. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/73 "2014-10-24T23:41:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If there’s a business whose customers are overwhelmingly people who are dumb, I have no problem with limiting the ways that business does business. That’s why liberals shouldn’t be elected to anything. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/74 "2014-10-24T23:43:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, even the NRA is in awe of the powerful sofa rent-to-own lobby. [And yet](http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/jack_craver/why-is-scott-walker-pushing-rent-to-own-deregulation-his/article_b8db829e-be75-11e2-b1fb-001a4bcf887a.html): > [@](#): > > Ashley, a large state employer, is not registered to lobby this session, but last session it reported spending $94,000 lobbying the Legislature just on the rent-to-own issue. > > The other big backer of the measure is Rent-A-Center, a rent-to-own chain based in Plano, Texas. Last session it reported spending $192,000 lobbying the Legislature. Representing its interests is one of the top lobbyists in town, Eric Petersen, who, in addition to having an impressive array of powerful corporate interests on his client list, seems to be the go-to guy for stigmatized interest groups — payday lenders, tobacco companies, bail bonds, to name a few. > [@Bricker](#): > > That’s why liberals shouldn’t be elected to anything. Indeed, because we bring about the tyranny of not being able to buy sofas at three times the going rate and the terrible suffering that entails. We’re practically the Hitler of sofas. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/75 "2014-10-25T00:02:43Z")
First they came for the sofa gougers, and I said nothing because I was not a sofa gouger. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/76 "2014-10-25T00:26:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > [And yet](http://host.madison.com/news/local/writers/jack_craver/why-is-scott-walker-pushing-rent-to-own-deregulation-his/article_b8db829e-be75-11e2-b1fb-001a4bcf887a.html): > > Indeed, because we bring about the tyranny of not being able to buy sofas at three times the going rate and the terrible suffering that entails. We’re practically the Hitler of sofas. This is an excellent example of the philosophy that guides liberals. When is anyone actually fairly held responsible for their inability to control themselves? You know what my first bookcase was? It was a couple of planks scrap lumber with cinderblock separating them, junk my dad got for free from a construction project. My friends had real bookcases. I had that. But our outcomes should be the same, right? They bought bookcases on a whacky credit plan; I had planks. But they should be rescued from their desire to have good stuff. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/77 "2014-10-25T00:28:33Z")
**Bricker** likes (or liked) to trot out the old idea about how conservatives think liberals have bad ideas, and liberals think conservatives are bad people. But I think this exchange illustrates another difference: conservatives tend to put a lot of value on principles. Liberals tend to put a lot of value on experiences. Here we’ve got two options. In one, we uphold the principles of liberty, responsibility, free choice, and free markets, at the cost of knowing a lot of people are going to suffer and few are going to derive any real pleasure. In the other, we slightly limit liberty, free choice, and free markets, and deprioritize responsibility, for the benefit of knowing that it’s going to end some suffering. We’re not talking about jailing people for thoughtcrimes here. It’s not a drastic limitation on liberty to say you’re not allowed to sell sofas at usurious rates. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/78 "2014-10-25T00:31:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is an excellent example of the philosophy that guides liberals. > > When is anyone actually fairly held responsible for their inability to control themselves? > > You know what my first bookcase was? It was a couple of planks scrap lumber with cinderblock separating them, junk my dad got for free from a construction project. > > My friends had real bookcases. I had that. > > But our outcomes should be the same, right? They bought bookcases on a whacky credit plan; I had planks. But they should be rescued from their desire to have good stuff. Right? I have no particular desire to rescue anybody. But I do have a desire to prevent greedy bastards from profiting off the stupidity of others. Just because you can doesn’t mean you should. Make a living without gouging your neighbor. Or be a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/79 "2014-10-25T00:43:05Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Something that always bugs me in these arguments is the scorn heaped upon the dumb. > > Some people are dumb. What should they do? Just get smarter? Pray to the intelligence fairy? Stop existing? Being slow is not a moral failing. It’s just a reality, and surely we can do something better for people who apparently can’t multiply than gleefully fleece them out of their last dollar. I agree. I have a feeling that if we were told that this woman has an IQ of 75, no one would be slamming her intelligence or calling out her “bad” choices. But because the reporter doesn’t say she’s mentally handicapped, we assume her bad choices must be the result of willful ignorance and character defect rather than factors beyond her control Most poor people are not stupid, but a lot of them have received inferior educations and exposure to life. Poverty itself promotes social isolation, cognitive deficits, and impulse control. It is likely this woman is indeed “dumb”, but it’s not because she’s chosen to be this way. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371/80 "2014-10-25T00:47:08Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Most poor people are not stupid, but a lot of them have received inferior educations and exposure to life. Poverty itself promotes social isolation, cognitive deficits, and impulse control. It is likely this woman is indeed “dumb”, but it’s not because she’s chosen to be this way. Like i said above, if you took this women and explained how much more she would be paying for the sofa and she STILL decided to take it, what would you do? what should we do in that situation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-washington-post-for-glorifying-ignorance-and-stupidity/702371.md?page=5)