# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/241 "2013-07-14T19:14:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, we don’t know that Martin “went out if his way to attack” Zimmerman or that he even attacked him. We know they had a fight and at one point Martin seemed to have the upper hand, but no evidence, other than word of paranoid, racist liar with a history of violence, that Trayvon “attacked” him. +1 It’s amusing to me that his defenders have just taken his version of events. If I was walking along and minding my own business, then some crazy ass wannabe cop started stalking me and threatening my life, you can bet everything that I’d defend myself. Amazing that doing so would be considered a bad thing and grounds for a killing. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/242 "2013-07-14T19:31:26Z")
I wonder if people will give up learning self-defense techniques and just carry lethal weapons with them. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/243 "2013-07-14T19:34:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wonder if people will give up learning self-defense techniques and just carry lethal weapons with them. In Florida, apparently, as long as you kill the person you mix it up with and he was black and you weren’t, it’s perfectly legal. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/244 "2013-07-14T19:34:29Z")
Nope, we don’t take his word for it, we look at the evidence. Martin went out of his way to return to Zimmerman. Shortly after that, Zimmerman was on the ground with a broken nose, and Martin on top of him. There is, quite literally, no evidence that Zimmerman did anything to start a fight. If it pleases you to construct imaginary narratives that ignore the evidence but feed your fantasies of persecution, have fun with it, but don’t expect to be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/245 "2013-07-14T19:34:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wonder if people will give up learning self-defense techniques and just carry lethal weapons with them. A gun is a much more effective self-defense tool than bare hands. No matter how skilled in self-defense techniques you are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/246 "2013-07-14T19:49:19Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What is wrong with approaching a suspicious looking person and simply asking them what is going on? Quite a lot, actually. It’s insolent. Generally speaking, no one is answerable or accountable to a total stranger regarding what they are doing or where they are going. Some people would even argue that not even the **police** have any business asking about your business if they don’t actually see you misbehaving. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/247 "2013-07-14T19:52:17Z")
> [@Tequila\_Party](#): > > +1 > If I was walking along and minding my own business, then some crazy ass wannabe cop started stalking me and threatening my life Sad that you have to make things up to ensure your fake narrative justifies your outrage. (or perpetual victimhood, whatever). ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/248 "2013-07-14T19:53:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wonder if people will give up learning self-defense techniques and just carry lethal weapons with them. I started carrying a sidewalk in my pocket. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/249 "2013-07-14T19:53:59Z")
I agree with all of this: > **[On the Killing of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman](https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/07/on-the-killing-of-trayvon-martin-by-george-zimmerman/277773/)** > > The Atlantic covers news, politics, culture, technology, health, and more, through its articles, podcasts, videos, and flagship magazine. > [@](#): > > 1.) Last year–after Zimmerman was arrested–I wrote something hoping that he would be convicted. A commenter wrote in to object, saying that arguing for his arrest was justifiable. Arguing for his conviction was not. I acknowledged the point at the time. The wisdom of it seems even more appropriate today. > > 2.) I think the jury basically got it right. The only real eyewitness to the death of Trayvon Martin was the man who killed him. **At no point did I think that the state proved second degree murder. I also never thought they proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he acted recklessly.** They had no ability to counter his basic narrative, because there were no other eye-witnesses. _bolding mine_ > [@](#): > > 3.) The idea that Zimmerman got out of the car to check the street signs, was ambushed by 17-year old kid with no violent history who told him he “you’re going to die tonight” strikes me as very implausible. It strikes me as much more plausible that Martin was being followed by a strange person, that the following resulted in a confrontation, that Martin was getting the best of Zimmerman in the confrontation, and Zimmerman then shot him. > [@](#): > > 7.) Circling back to the first point, it’s worth remembering that what caused a national outcry was not the possibility of George Zimmerman being found innocent,\*\* but that there would be no trial at al\*\*l. This case was really unique because of what happend with the Sanford police. If you doubt this, ask yourself if you know the name “Jordan Davis.” Then ask yourself how many protests and national media reports you’ve seen about him. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/250 "2013-07-14T19:55:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He gets his gun back, too, doesn’t he? Wonder how much he’ll get for it on E-bay. You can’t sell guns on eBay. ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/251 "2013-07-14T19:55:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Quite a lot, actually. It’s insolent. Generally speaking, no one is answerable or accountable to a total stranger regarding what they are doing or where they are going. Some people would even argue that not even the **police** have any business asking about your business if they don’t actually see you misbehaving. So why don’t you take baby Tray-Tray’s approach and punch and tackle the next stranger that asks you a question. See how that works out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/252 "2013-07-14T19:56:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t read it that way, and I was careful to read the entire post 3 times. To me, the pro to-human jab was directed at Martin specifically. Given **LP** ’s posting history ( even in this thread ), I think that is an overgenerous interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/253 "2013-07-14T20:03:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Quite a lot, actually. It’s insolent. Generally speaking, no one is answerable or accountable to a total stranger regarding what they are doing or where they are going. Some people would even argue that not even the **police** have any business asking about your business if they don’t actually see you misbehaving. Insolence does not justify punching someone in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/254 "2013-07-14T20:08:57Z")
Unfortunately, Trayvon was too young for a CCW. If he had been carrying, legally of course, he could have shot Zim as soon as Zim attempted to illegally detain him. Now that would have been an interesting case. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/255 "2013-07-14T20:13:12Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Unfortunately, Trayvon was too young for a CCW. > > If he had been carrying, legally of course, he could have shot Zim as soon as Zim attempted to illegally detain him. He could have. Then he would have been charged with murder and convicted, since in order to claim self-defense when you kill someone, you have to show reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm. Someone putting a hand on you (even if that happened, and you have absolutely no evidence it did) does not qualify. I think Zimmerman would have been convicted if he was not injured. Even though you don’t need injury, legally, to claim self-defense, it certainly helps to establish reasonable doubt, especially when the other side’s injury before the shooting happened consists of a scraped knuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/256 "2013-07-14T20:19:00Z")
The idea that there _should_ have been a trial is, at best, questionable. The probable cause affadavit was terrible, and not fit for the purpose, but it may be that there was (just) probable cause to try him. What there was not, and could not have been, was any chance that they could have won, so the trial happening was fundamentally unethical, even if it wasn’t actually illegal. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/257 "2013-07-14T20:22:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, we don’t take his word for it, we look at the evidence. Martin went out of his way to return to Zimmerman. Shortly after that, Zimmerman was on the ground with a broken nose, and Martin on top of him. There is, quite literally, no evidence that Zimmerman did anything to start a fight… You mean, other than follow him when specifically instructed not to? Get out of his truck and confront him? What did he say to Trayvon Martin? An exchange of pleasantries, perhaps, after describing him on the phone as an “asshole” and a “punk”? Do you attach any significance to the fact that the was armed? He could have left the gun in the truck, no? But decided not to. Do you wonder why? Mr. Zimmerman had been instructed in the technicalities of self defense law. What would have stopped him from breaking his own nose? Certainly would have bolstered his “self defense” claim, no? Which fact he knew. Martin is on top, pinning Z to the ground while he wails away on him with his fists. Yet, miraculously, Z can reach the gun which is holstered behind his back, which he is lying upon with both his weight and Martin’s. You think maybe Martin might have noticed that rather than using both hands to protect himself, he started reaching behind his back? Didn’t Z say that Martin went for his gun, trying to grab it? Unsuccessfully, it appears, since there was no Martin DNA on the gun. He couldn’t get up and outrun a 9mm bullet, so he pretty much has to grab that gun but couldn’t manage even to _touch_ it? Reflexes slowed by Skittles, perhaps? Why not do as he was told, simply stay in his truck and wait for the cops? Because he was an officer of the law, and a crime was in progress? But he wasn’t, and it wasn’t. Martin didn’t follow Z. Martin did not initiate the chain of events, Z did. Any of this sinking in? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/258 "2013-07-14T20:23:38Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Unfortunately, Trayvon was too young for a CCW. > > If he had been carrying, legally of course, he could have shot Zim as soon as Zim attempted to illegally detain him. > > Now that would have been an interesting case. “Why did you shoot George Zimmerman, Travyon Martin?” “Because when he strolled up on me in the darkness and demanded to know what I was doing and I told him to fuck off, he called me a punk and came at me like animal. I started to run, but he grabbed my arm. I threw out a punch and he fell back, hit his head on something. That’s when I saw the gun in his pocket. He reached for it the moment I saw it. So I pulled out mine and pulled the trigger. I got him before he could get me, officer.” I await the chorus of people saying they would have defended Trayvon Martin if he had been the one presenting this testimony. But I won’t believe them. I believe Trayvon Martin would have been charged right away that night, and no one would even know his name. Not even the real Trayvon Martin sympathizers would be coming to his defense, if he had been the killer. I agree with you and that columnist, **Belowjob**. From the very beginning, I just wanted George Zimmerman to have his day in court. It was disturbing to me that people were fine with the investigation petering out the way it had. That’s not justice in anyone’s book. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/259 "2013-07-14T20:23:43Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > Sad that you have to make things up to ensure your fake narrative justifies your outrage. (or perpetual victimhood, whatever). You mean make shit up like Zimmerman did? Not even hardly, you racist mother fucker. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/260 "2013-07-14T20:26:03Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > So why don’t you take baby Tray-Tray’s approach and punch and tackle the next stranger that asks you a question. See how that works out for you. Asks a question, huh? Is that how you got to be such a racist piece of shit? Some poor black person dared to ask your highness a question? Crawl back in your hole, ass wipe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=14)