# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/281 "2013-07-14T21:22:06Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Wait, what?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till) > > Sounds pretty dead to me. Oh, he absolutely was dead, and absolutely was killed by the men accused of his murder. Unfortunately\*, the prosecution failed to prove that in court. From your cite > [@](#): > > a doctor from Greenwood stated on the stand that the body was too decomposed to identify, and therefore had been in the water too long for it to be Till. Please don’t take my belief that the jury were technically right as anything other than a comment on how disgracefully the trial was handled. \*By “unfortunately” I mean “as part of a racist conspiracy”. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/282 "2013-07-14T21:29:35Z")
“The fundamental danger of an acquittal is not more riots, it is more George Zimmermans.” – [Jay Smooth](http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023246782) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/283 "2013-07-14T21:30:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, he absolutely was dead, and absolutely was killed by the men accused of his murder. Unfortunately\*, the prosecution failed to prove that in court. From your cite > > Please don’t take my belief that the jury were technically right as anything other than a comment on how disgracefully the trial was handled. > > \*By “unfortunately” I mean “as part of a racist conspiracy”. Legally, they didn’t have to **believe** that doctor, they could have convicted. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/284 "2013-07-14T21:32:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Being followed by an armed man in a state where it’s essentially legal for him to kill you at a whim is a “reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm”. Something clearly demonstrated by the fact that he’s dead. If you’re a defense lawyer, you can argue that. Good luck getting an acquittal with that twisted logic, though. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/285 "2013-07-14T21:35:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Legally, they didn’t have to **believe** that doctor, they could have convicted. Only if there were evidence to the contrary, that Till was in fact dead and not missing. I’m not just making this up, it’s one of the major controversies from that trial, and one of the reasons the prosecution is considered to be part of the racist conspiracy to avoid a conviction. It’s far from the only one - they failed to call several men who are known to have witnessed the killing, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/286 "2013-07-14T21:36:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didn’t read it that way, and I was careful to read the entire post 3 times. To me, the pro to-human jab was directed at Martin specifically. Based on…? Good god. Y’all are breaking my heart here. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/287 "2013-07-14T21:36:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you’re a defense lawyer, you can argue that. Good luck getting an acquittal with that twisted logic, though. He, conveniently, missed out the part where the fear has to be imminent. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/288 "2013-07-14T21:39:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > His employable skill set is rather limited. > > Which brings me to wonder, how is he going to make a living? Write a book? Talk shows? I know he had a legal defense fund, anything left? > > Might well be headed for a life of fear and grinding poverty. It ain’t justice, but it is _karma_. Hey babycakes, nice to see you! I already predicted a few days ago, and when it comes to pass I shall remind everyone: expect him to be making appearances on Fox. For $$, of course. As a commentator. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/289 "2013-07-14T21:39:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Apart from the witness who saw him on top beating Zimmerman, you mean? Apart from the injuries to Zimmerman’s face and Martin’s fist? Your logic is atrocious. That’s evidence they had a fight, not evidence that Martin either initiated the violence or threw the first punch. We could just as easily claim that Zimmerman started the fight by reaching for his gun and Trayvon was defending himself. > [@](#): > > I also don’t believe that the actual jury there would have convicted in a proper trial. Then you’re embarrassingly ignorant of history. If you went to private school, you owe your parents their money back, if you went to public school, you owe the taxpayers a refund. > [@](#): > > Ha ha, try actually reading people’s posts rather than taking the word of one of this site’s more notable racists (that’s Ibn I’m on about, by the way). This is rather funny. I’m “one of this site’s more notable racists”? I literally laughed out loud at this. Thanks, because I really needed a good laugh. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/290 "2013-07-14T21:41:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you’re a defense lawyer, you can argue that. Good luck getting an acquittal with that twisted logic, though. Luck has nothing to do with it; skin color does. > [@Steophan](#): > > He, conveniently, missed out the part where the fear has to be imminent. Considering that he’s dead, it doesn’t get more imminent. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/291 "2013-07-14T21:43:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > This is rather funny. > > I’m “one of this site’s more notable racists”? > > I literally laughed out loud at this. > > Thanks, because I really needed a good laugh. Um, about that. I think I mixed you up with one of the people you argue with in the Israel threads. I’m sorry for that, I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/292 "2013-07-14T21:44:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Luck has nothing to do with it; skin color does. Yep. Every bad lawyer tells himself that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/293 "2013-07-14T21:45:05Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We don’t know that Martin said “You’re going to die now.” He could have really said, “You’re an asshole”, and Zimmerman simply misheard him. Or Martin could have said nothing at all, except “Why are you following me?” No one heard him say anything after that. We only have Zimmerman’s word for it. > > His wounds aren’t consistent with being punched and slammed 20-odd times. His own vitals didn’t indicate that he was in any fear, let alone mortal fear. > > But all of this was deemed irrelevant. As were all the other WTFs. Completely irrelevant. > > Makes me wonder just how anyone ever gets sent to prison. Imagine all the guys sitting in prison right now, regretting their decision to plead guilty instead of claiming SYG self-defense. People will be wiser now in the future. They get sent to prison when a jury finds they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Your analysis has it backwards You’re assuming he’s guilty if you can construct a reasonable scenario in which he could be guilty. I’m not saying our justice system is perfect-- I’m sure lots of innocent people get convicted and I’m sure lots of juries stretch the "reasonable doubt’ part. But multiple wrongs don’t make a right, and this case is the way it’s supposed to work. There was reasonable doubt that this was 2nd degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/294 "2013-07-14T21:46:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > (even if that happened, and you have absolutely no evidence it did) Reasonable inferences. Reasonable inferences. Reasonable inferences. Without them, almost no one is convicted. Also, never forget that Zimmerman’s lies could be taken by the jury as evidence in favor of finding him guilty. Just the mere fact of them, forget the way they point to other things. Someone lies about things material to his guilt or lack of it can be seen as consciousness of guilt, and _ **consciousness** _ of guilt can be seen as _ **evidence** _ of guilt. It can’t be the basis for conviction by itself, but it can definitely be in the mix. It is false to argue that the absence of direct observation of every moment of the incident and the presence of the word of a liar must automatically mean that he has to be acquitted due to lack of evidence leading to other conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/295 "2013-07-14T21:48:06Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Based on…? > > Good god. Y’all are breaking my heart here. Seriously. I think any further discussion of this topic belongs in ATMB, but I’m not in the mood for starting a thread about it. I’ll participate if someone else starts it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/296 "2013-07-14T21:51:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Um, about that. > > I think I mixed you up with one of the people you argue with in the Israel threads. > > I’m sorry for that, I was wrong. Fair enough. Apology accepted. Few people are willing to apologize for or admit they made mistakes on the internet so I’ll sincerely congratulate you for doing so. Also, I do think you’re completely wrong regarding the Till case and naive if you think the jury would have convicted had the prosecution done a better job. White southern juries back then had no problem with blacks getting murdered by whites, but I’ll retract my other statements and apologize for them. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/297 "2013-07-14T21:51:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Your logic is atrocious. > > That’s evidence they had a fight, not evidence that Martin either initiated the violence or threw the first punch. > > We could just as easily claim that Zimmerman started the fight by reaching for his gun and Trayvon was defending himself. It’s very clear, isn’t it? Not to some folks… Zimmerman has some injuries = Trayvon Martin attacked him for no reason and nearly beat him to death. My favorite logical wackitude I think is “Jeantel said Martin said he was near his father’s house. THEREFORE: Martin was \*\*\*at \*\*\*home, left home to find Zimmerman and attack him for no reason.” It’s been fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/298 "2013-07-14T21:52:35Z")
**Stoid** , why are you still clinging to the notion that Zimmerman lied about what happened, despite all the evidence presented at the trial that supported him? Oh, I forgot, you didn’t follow the trial, you’re still stuck with your preconceived, unshakeable, unsupported opinion he’s guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/299 "2013-07-14T21:53:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you’re a defense lawyer, you can argue that. Good luck getting an acquittal with that twisted logic, though. How can it possibly be twisted logic when that’s _ **precisely** _ what happened to Trayvon Martin? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/300 "2013-07-14T21:57:14Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Also, never forget that Zimmerman’s lies could be taken by the jury as evidence in favor of finding him guilty. Just the mere fact of them, forget the way they point to other things. Wrong. Again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=16)