# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/321 "2013-07-14T23:11:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is there a time frame you’d be comfortable betting on? Say if he’s not in legal trouble from some new incident in the next two years, you lose? Or what kind of time frame are you talking about, specifically? I’d give it 15 years. OJ managed to stay out of jail for 14, and he’s a violent sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/322 "2013-07-14T23:13:47Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > I’d give it 15 years. OJ managed to stay out of jail for 14, and he’s a violent sociopath. Ah, the “teaching the Sultan’s horse to speak” kind of bet 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/323 "2013-07-14T23:19:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah, the “teaching the Sultan’s horse to speak” kind of bet 🙂 I wasn’t the one proposing a wager. You all really shouldn’t be doubling down on defending Zim. He’s trouble. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/324 "2013-07-14T23:20:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Have you listened to the tape? You can hear him struggling to give directions, then asking the dispatcher to get the police to call him. > > Why do you keep saying he didn’t follow the advice? > > Ha ha, no, no that’s not what happened. This has been discussed ad nauseum, and your theory has been shown to be nonsense. Fortunately, anyone who wants can listen to the call and see. Posted link to transcript. Its right there. “…The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle…” (That’s Zimmerman, by the way.) That’s pretty explicit, for a guy who later claimed not to know where he was. You offer us a lot of flat-fact statements, but never seem to get around to telling us where you got them. You know, with a link? Like I do? Like everybody else does? Work on that, won’t you? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/325 "2013-07-14T23:29:41Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > It’s amazing that you’ve spent the better part of what, eighteen months? arguing this, and you still fail to get it. > > Whether the defendant had a reasonable fear of imminent serious bodily harm is a question of fact for the jury. There is no point of law holding that “someone putting a hand on you . . . does not qualify.” A defendant very well could contend that, and if the jury believed that the circumstances of this “putting hands on” were such that a reasonable person would feel he or she faced imminent serious bodily harm, then an adequate claim of self-defense has been made. Wait, is this an argument for Zimmerman’s guilt or Martin’s? ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/326 "2013-07-14T23:33:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > That’s pretty explicit, for a guy who later claimed not to know where he was. You’re fucking retarded… That is the address to the clubhouse, not where he was later. Of course you left out when he says later, AFTER he has moved past the clubhouse: “I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.” Did you even follow this case? or are you just taking your cues from the “Justice for Skittles” crowd? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/327 "2013-07-14T23:38:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is there a time frame you’d be comfortable betting on? Say if he’s not in legal trouble from some new incident in the next two years, you lose? Or what kind of time frame are you talking about, specifically? Two years isn’t long enough. I’d imagine his lawyers would have him on a tight leash while there are still legal cases pending. How long will it take to be done with all that and he’s left to fend for himself? ---
**Author:** ![Tracijo67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@Tracijo67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracijo67)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/328 "2013-07-14T23:42:11Z")
We will never know what really happened. We can hold varying degrees of informed opinions based on the bits and pieces that we _do_ know, but only George Zimmerman knows the whole truth (and even then, in the heat of the moment, he likely doesn’t recall the entire chain of events with 100% clarity). What I believe is _likely_ is that Trayvon knew he was being followed, understood why he was being viewed with suspicion, and it made him righteously angry. He was a 17-year-old kid returning to his rightful home from a trip to the convenience store, and in his short life, he probably already knew more than he should have about racial profiling and the assumption of guilt based on the color of his skin (and if anyone is in doubt about this, check out the contents of the average message board, including this one – plenty of phobic racism rearing it’s anonymously ugly head in the remarks being made – speaks volumes about the prejudices still held by the white majority, and the ugliness of sweeping assumptions being applied to an entire race of people). He probably got angry, and confronted Zimmerman. From the very little I read about Zimmerman’s motivation, and what little can be pieced together based on his past behaviors, I doubt he intended to harm Trayvon. But I also doubt that he would have called the police or followed the boy if he were a white kid wearing Levis and sketchers, rather than a black boy wearing a hoodie and khakis. Zimmerman seems almost … timid to me. I doubt that Trayvon told him that he was going to die tonight. I suspect that he did confront Zimmerman, and that there was some kind of physical altercation based on Zimmerman’s response. It sickens me, this world we live in, how the assumptions we still hold can and do cause great harm, and that a 17-year-old boy is dead because he was walking through a neighborhood that he belonged in, his only “crime” being that he was black. I’m beyond tired of the gun nuts and the presumption that it’s our right as citizens to walk around, armed to the teeth. All because the creators of our constitution, who surely didn’t, surely COULDN’T, have foreseen the absolute clusterfuck we’ve made of the historical meaning of “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”. Had I been on that jury, I would have acquitted Zimmerman too. The tragedy arising from his actions could have been averted, had he been walking around with a can of pepper spray rather than a gun. Or, had he felt that his life would have been in danger by walking around with a weapon that isn’t likely to kill an actual intruder, he could have chosen to stay the fuck home and let the cops deal with the bad guys. He did neither, and a child’s life is ended (and a great big FUCK YOU to anyone who demonizes Trayvon by comparing his “gangsta” persona to a man’s behavior – kids that age are obnoxious and rebellious and they are still, at the end of the day, someone’s child). But I believe that Zimmerman acted within the confines of the law. I fervently pray that the law will soon be changed. I’ve long since lost hope that the hideously ugly darkness at the heart of collective racism will ever change. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/329 "2013-07-15T00:05:53Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > You’re fucking retarded… > > That is the address to the clubhouse, not where he was later. Of course you left out when he says later, AFTER he has moved past the clubhouse: > > “I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.” > > Did you even follow this case? or are you just taking your cues from the “Justice for Skittles” crowd? You left out some: > [@](#): > > …Um, if they come in through the, uh, (knocking sound) gate, tell them to go straight past the club house, and uh, (knocking sound) straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, that’s my truck…[unintelligible] > > Dispatcher > > What address are you parked in front of? > > Zimmerman > > I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address… > **[NBC News - Breaking News & Top Stories - Latest World, US & Local News](https://www.nbcnews.com/)** > > Go to NBCNews.com for breaking news, videos, and the latest top stories in world news, business, politics, health and pop culture. Are we supposed to believe he was lost, after telling the dispatcher precisely where he was in his truck? Maybe I am retarded, but I can read. What’s your excuse? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/330 "2013-07-15T00:20:45Z")
> [@Tracijo67](#): > > (and a great big FUCK YOU to anyone who demonizes Trayvon by comparing his “gangsta” persona to a man’s behavior – kids that age are obnoxious and rebellious and they are still, at the end of the day, someone’s child). Seconded. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/331 "2013-07-15T00:23:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, they don’t. They ignore the evidence, and claim their speculation as truth, just like you’re doing. ^^^^^^^^ =missing capacity to recognize and comprehend perspectives different than your own, leading to your labeling them as something else. > [@](#): > > Nope, you’ve not once laid out a plausible scenario which fits the evidence where Zimmerman murders Martin. You’ve tried, but in all cases you have (hilariously) failed to consider the evidence _and_ failed to create a scenario where he’s guilty. ^^^^^^^^^ =Gaping void where normal brains keep their ability to perceive things that are different from their own perception, which leads to denial that such things even exist. Also coupled with the missing capacity to recognize and comprehend perspectives other than your own, leading to saying that evidence wasn’t considered. (You aren’t specific, but I assume you are referring to evidence which is in no way irrefutable, but which you find persuasive, causing you to then believe that what you find persuasive must be found by everyone to be persuasive and a failure to do so must mean a failure to consider it at all, which is of course false, has always been false, will always be false.) I mentioned in these threads a terrific technique for dealing with conflict with a loved one that I learned in therapy. Instead of launching into your argument against what the other person has said, begin instead by repeating back to them, in your own words, what you understand them to be saying. Let them tell you if you have understood what they have said correctly, listen to their clarifications and corrections, then try again to tell them exactly what you understand them to be saying. Repeat until the other person tells you that yes, you have correctly understood what they were saying. _Then_, having clearly shown that you actually do understand what it is you are responding to, you can reply. After a few weeks of debating this with you, Steophan, I genuinely believe that you are not actually capable of doing this, not least because things actually do not register on your conscious mind as what they are, and of course because you labor under the belief that (seeing as how you fancy yourself the Keeper of All Truth and all) you have a better understanding of what people intend with their words than they do, which would absolutely prevent you from succeeding at this. But I’d be intrigued to see you try. > [@elucidator](#): > > Whereupon he said “OK”, that he would comply, and goes on further to discuss with the dispatcher where he would meet the police. He gave the dispatcher every indication that he would follow the “advice”. > > But then he didn’t. > > Notice how he gives such excellent location instructions, addresses, the works. But then, later… Actually, the tell comes when he says have the police call when they arrive. Given the extreme simplicity of the layout, I asked if anyone could come up with a plausible reason why he would tell the dispatcher to have them call him when they arrive, a reason that is something _ **other** _ than his realizing he would not _ **know** _ where he was when they arrived because he intended to keep looking for Martin. Can you think of any? And because I know you to be a very clever fella, old friend, let me ask you to come up with a reason for why GZ claimed the following to be true: [ul] [li]He didn’t know if he actually hit Martin or not[/li][li]Because Martin was still talking (but what he supposedly said was “you got me”)[/li][li]Then Martin fell forward onto the grass with his hands under him (which people who have not been hit by bullets always do…never) [/li][li]GZ climbed on his back to spread his arms out and search him for weapons[/li][li]When a neighbor came out and said he’d call 911 GZ told him no, don’t, help restrain this guy, because he’d already called the police.[/li][/ul] And the police arrived mere seconds after he’d stood up, finding Martin with his hands under him, dead. GZ is telling a whopper, _starting_ with the insane assertion that after taking aim, pointing the pistol directly at the middle of Trayvon’s chest when he was sitting on GZ’s torso, and firing, he didn’t think he’d hit him. [Cue Seth Meyers and Amy Pohler: Really!!?!] Then he _still_ didn’t think he’d hit him when Trayvon spontaneously fell over onto his face… :dubious: He climbed on his back and spread his arms out…but Martin was found with his arms under him. 😕 So this is a big story he’s telling - the question becomes why he felt he had to tell it. Clearly he did climb onto Martin’s back, people saw him there. And clearly, if he admitted knowing that he’d blown a hole in the kid’s chest it would make him look like a real fucking bastard to climb on the back of a kid with a mortal wound in his chest. Admitting knowing the kid was mortally wounded would mean he couldn’t sell that he had to “restrain” him. And of course, how do you explain telling a neighbor not to call 911, the police are already on their way, when there’s a kid with a mortal wound in his chest who obviously needs medical assistance? So this lifeless body was beating the life out of GZ seconds before, forcing GZ to shoot him, but GZ thought he missed… yet he was limp, unresistant, and totally at GZ’s mercy all of a sudden anyway? Because…? Because GZ is actually a moron who needs to be institutionalized due to his lack of the most basic mental functioning needed to be part of society? Or because GZ is lying as fast as he can? So, any guesses about what he was _ **actually** _ doing on the back of the kid he knew he’d just blown a hole into that he knew he had to cover up? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/332 "2013-07-15T00:29:49Z")
> [@G-SE](#): > > So why don’t you take baby Tray-Tray’s approach and punch and tackle the next stranger that asks you a question. See how that works out for you. :dubious: “Baby Tray-Tray”? Show the dead kid a bit more respect than **that,** please. And see post #330. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/333 "2013-07-15T00:47:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. Again. The comment to which you responded was posted by Stoid. That means _your_ post should have been: “Wrong. Still.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/334 "2013-07-15T00:50:07Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > …why he would tell the dispatcher to have them call him when they arrive, a reason that is something _ **other** _ than his realizing he would not _ **know** _ where he was when they arrived because he intended to keep looking for Martin. > > Can you think of any?.. If I follow you, you mean that the only reason he would need to be called would be that he was _not_ going to be in the truck? Plausible, certainly. Secondary might be that he was a “wannabe”, he wanted to stay central to the action, be a part of it. So he wanted to be sure they would call him, keep him in the loop. And if I’m gonna be giving **Steophan** shit for stating facts without links, I can’t let you get away with it just because you’re cuter. Which is why I’m not checking out that list just yet. Well, that and the X-box is calling, ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/335 "2013-07-15T00:59:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yep. Every bad lawyer tells himself that. The statistics show that our “justice” system is grotesquely racist, whatever you want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/336 "2013-07-15T01:13:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is there a time frame you’d be comfortable betting on? Say if he’s not in legal trouble from some new incident in the next two years, you lose? Or what kind of time frame are you talking about, specifically? Are you currently taking medication for restless leg syndrome? I’ve rarely seen anyone so anxious to exploit any opportunity to gamble, however piddling and pointless the payout. Is this a muffled cry for help? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/337 "2013-07-15T01:23:38Z")
[Bugs Bunny had the right idea.](http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xiTM2HQ0g98&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxiTM2HQ0g98) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/338 "2013-07-15T01:43:49Z")
[Moderating] Everyone, saying “fuck you” or calling other people “motherfuckers” is a violation of the Pits language rules, no matter how much the target may deserve it. Please, do _not_ make me start handing out warnings over that rule. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/339 "2013-07-15T02:02:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Everyone, saying “fuck you” or calling other people “motherfuckers” is a violation of the Pits language rules, no matter how much the target may deserve it. Please, do _not_ make me start handing out warnings over that rule. > [/Moderating] If this is about post #328 I call shenanigans, and not on **Traci.** ---
**Author:** ![Tracijo67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@Tracijo67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracijo67)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/340 "2013-07-15T02:10:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > Everyone, saying “fuck you” or calling other people “motherfuckers” is a violation of the Pits language rules, no matter how much the target may deserve it. Please, do _not_ make me start handing out warnings over that rule. > [/Moderating] If this is about my post, I am sorry. My remark was not aimed at any individual; in fact, I was thinking about Twitter feeds and Facebook posts that portray Trayvon as a sociopathic killer-in-training. I wasn’t aware that this was against the rules, and (long overdue) I will peruse them now so I can’t claim ignorance in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=18)