# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/401 "2013-07-15T16:31:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not making a legal argument. Of course this is just my opinion. I’m saying what I find reasonable. You might be totally right about Zimmerman- and the jury may have made the exactly correct legal decision. That has nothing to do with my opinion, or what I find reasonable. I’d love to hear your opinion on the likelihood that Zimmerman has any moral (not legal) culpability for Trayvon’s death. In my view, Zimmerman is morally culpable for Martin’s death. Knowing he was armed, and knowing the police were on their way, Zimmerman had no good reason to go on foot at all. He did, and set in motion a chain of events that ended with Martin’s death. Zimmerman’s actions were completely legal, but unwise and foolish. In my opinion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/402 "2013-07-15T16:31:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bull-fucking-shit. I did not come to his defense. I do think he’s a racist, I just don’t think that particular post was hate speech by the standards of what gets posted here all the time w/o moderator smack-down. I don’t know the history of **Lonesome** , so I don’t know what his deal is. But there is nothing in that post to justify a warning, and certainly nothing to justify a banning. People have said horrible things about Zimmerman without getting warnings. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/403 "2013-07-15T16:33:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not making a legal argument. Of course this is just my opinion. I’m saying what I find reasonable. You might be totally right about Zimmerman- and the jury may have made the exactly correct legal decision. That has nothing to do with my opinion, or what I find reasonable. I’d love to hear your opinion on the likelihood that Zimmerman has any moral (not legal) culpability for Trayvon’s death. Basing your moral argument, and your reasoning, on things other than the actual evidence - and I don’t here mean just the evidence at the trial, but everything we know about the case and the people - will not lead to a worthwhile result. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/404 "2013-07-15T16:33:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That may be the case. Ultimately, though, it doesn’t affect Zimmerman’s right to self defence. For that to change, you’d need to prove he was committing a felony when he caused reasonable fear in Martin, rather than acting legally. > > Don’t forget, though, Zimmerman was _not_ the only witness. Rachel Jeantal heard the confrontation prior to the fight, and said nothing that suggests Martin thought Zimmerman was threatening him with a gun, or shouting threats at him. That, for me, would mean that there’s more evidence that Martin did not have reason to fear imminent attack. Jeantal heard part of the confrontation prior to the fight (through a phone), though all her testimony indicated to me was that there was some sort of physical fight before the gunshot, and we already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/405 "2013-07-15T16:35:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Basing your moral argument, and your reasoning, on things other than the actual evidence - and I don’t here mean just the evidence at the trial, but everything we know about the case and the people - will not lead to a worthwhile result. I totally agree- I strive to take into account everything when making a moral judgment. Like Justice herself, I carefully weigh every piece of evidence, poring through every permutation and possibility. Lo, my moral proclamations carry with them the weight of the gods- all shall hear them, tremble, and nod their heads vociferously for my righteousness! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/406 "2013-07-15T16:37:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Jeantal heard part of the confrontation prior to the fight (through a phone), though all her testimony indicated to me was that there was some sort of physical fight before the gunshot, and we already knew that. Exactly. No threats, no shouting, no mention of a gun - except when she tells Martin his actions will get him shot… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/407 "2013-07-15T16:39:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I totally agree- I strive to take into account everything when making a moral judgment. Like Justice herself, I carefully weigh every piece of evidence, poring through every permutation and possibility. Lo, my moral proclamations carry with them the weight of the gods- all shall hear them, tremble, and nod their heads vociferously for my righteousness! Hubris is a dangerous thing. Like Icarus, you may fly too close to the Sun of Truth on wings of insufficient Reason, and your fall will be a lesson to all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/408 "2013-07-15T16:42:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Hubris is a dangerous thing. Like Icarus, you may fly too close to the Sun of Truth on wings of insufficient Reason, and your fall will be a lesson to all. On this board, we observe the laws of physics, young man - even in metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/409 "2013-07-15T16:42:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Hubris is a dangerous thing. Like Icarus, you may fly too close to the Sun of Truth on wings of insufficient Reason, and your fall will be a lesson to all. My wings are armored with the Asbestos of Virtue and cannot be set aflame. Though they do tend to increase my risk of cancer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/410 "2013-07-15T16:43:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, Zimmerman is morally culpable for Martin’s death. > > Knowing he was armed, and knowing the police were on their way, Zimmerman had no good reason to go on foot at all. He did, and set in motion a chain of events that ended with Martin’s death. Zimmerman’s actions were completely legal, but unwise and foolish. > > In my opinion, of course. So there’s a good chance we’re in total agreement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/411 "2013-07-15T16:54:21Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know the history of **Lonesome** , so I don’t know what his deal is. But there is nothing in that post to justify a warning, and certainly nothing to justify a banning. Come, now. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Well, damn, I’ve spent years hanging around on this board establishing my reputation as the board’s racist monster, and now all of a sudden you turn up trying to hog my glory. > > Even so, this is a glorious moment. A Florida jury has affirmed our right to use deadly force to defend ourselves from feral proto-humans, and, having twice been the victim of black street violence, I fervently hope there will be yet another wave of Euro-Americans flooding the gun stores to buy the weaponry and munitions needed to deal with the Trayvon Martins and Rodney Kings of our decaying and disintegrating nation. > > The problem is not white racism. > > The problem is black lawlessness and violence. > > Trayvon Martin, rot in Hell. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > It’s being a soft, cowardly little shitbag too spineless to deal with reality which makes people pretend that black lawlessness and violence is somehow not real or not important, and shrieks “Racism!” at anyone who dares to speak about this unpleasant truth in public. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I’ve seen my blood spattered on a sidewalk because of animals like Trayvon Martin. You can squeal all you want, but it means nothing to me. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Ah, I see. White victims of black violence are of no importance, and so there must be no cries of “No justice, no peace,” when whites suffer racial violence by blacks. Thank you for making it clear that injustice against lower class whites is of no importance to enlightened, progressive intellectuals such as yourself. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Perhaps you’d prefer a picture of me lying on a sidewalk next to a church while two black thugs beat me half senseless. Have you ever taken a look at the statistics about interracial violence? It’s not blacks who are getting the worst of it. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > I was talking specifically about interracial crime, but of course that point escaped you. And I guess I might as well add another point that’s going to whizz right over your head – it isn’t whites who have turned our cities into playgrounds for pyschopaths. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > When you have twice fought for your life against the likes of Trayvon Martin and Rodney King, perhaps you will be able to compose a response connected to reality and actually makes some kind of sense. Never having had much money, I’ve not been able to insulate myself from the ugly realities of street violence in the city, the bulk of which is due to young black men like Trayvon Martin. I’m confident that I have a much more accurate picture of interracial violence in modern America than you do, and I’m even more confident when I say that racial violence by blacks against whites, Asians and Hispanics is of absolutely no concern whatsoever to progressives. You may rant and cavil all you please, but the simple fact is that the black community is responsible for most of the racial violence in the United States today – and Trayvon Martin’s attack on George Zimmerman was a glaring example of that fact. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Well, sir, ordinarily I would never have the presumption to dispute political and social views the logic and eloquence of which is so perfectly concatenated and without abruption that only the most heinous of sophistic blackguards would dare challenge them, but being the impertinent guttersnipe that I am, I dare to suggest that both practical experience and common sense demonstrate your opinions of the subject to be those of a garden variety kneejerk liberal ninny and not those of a thoughtful and mature adult accustomed and familiar with the ways of the world. In the future, perhaps you should consider giving the word “fuck” a rest, and try actually to engage other participants in the discussion with genuine ideas, rather than with churlish rants about them being “a worthless, stupid piece of shit.” I trust I have made my point, and have not thereby tainted your simple and vulnerable mind. > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > You’ve never lived around animals like Rodney King and Trayvon Martin. I have. **None** of that is even warning-worthy? And he **got** his warning after the first post. Perhaps **LP** deserves a bit of admiration for not dissembling his true feelings on this matter, perhaps unlike some who are taking Zimmerman’s side in all this, but he can go be admired somewhere else. > [@Debaser](#): > > People have said horrible things about Zimmerman without getting warnings. Kids, can you say “false equivalence”? I knew you couldn’t! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/412 "2013-07-15T16:57:53Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I don’t know the history of **Lonesome** , so I don’t know what his deal is. But there is nothing in that post to justify a warning, and certainly nothing to justify a banning. > > People have said horrible things about Zimmerman without getting warnings. I don’t want to stray too far OT, but he referred to blacks as “feral proto-humans”. That’s not exactly the same as calling them “niggers” but it’s pretty close. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/413 "2013-07-15T17:03:03Z")
In fairness, it also describes me until I’ve had my morning coffee. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/414 "2013-07-15T17:05:35Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > How big and threatening Martin my have been means 'D" for diddly squat. This whole tragic circumstance rotates on one axis, the decision by Z to play junior cop, a role for which he was not authorized, not trained, and not competent. Had he left the matters in the hands of the local police, none of this would be happening now. He didn’t, and his decision is the crux of the biscuit. > > He is responsible for the death of Martin. Period. Full stop. Whether that responsibility carries the force of law, whether he is guilty of murder or manslaughter, whether he is not guilty of any crime whatsoever is secondary, he made the decision that made all of this happen. Those other questions are a playground for lawyers to frolic. > > All those legal questions are essentially academic. Trayvon Martin is dead because Z made the wrong decision. Why Zimmerman was following Martin means 'D" for diddly squat. This whole tragic circumstance rotates on one axis, the decision by M to play a “gangsta” and punch out Zimmerman. Had he just talked to him, instead of hitting him, none of this would be happening now. He didn’t, and his decision is the crux of the biscuit. Martin is responsible for the death of Martin. Period. Full stop. Trayvon Martin is dead because Z made the wrong decision - that is, to punch Zimmerman in response to a question. ---
**Author:** ![Lunchy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Lunchy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lunchy)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/415 "2013-07-15T17:06:29Z")
If I could only find the news article that said The Martin family told CBS news that their son was 6’2’’ and between 140 and 160 lbs. The fact most photos I’ve seen him in, (at his oldest anyway) he seems to be head and neck taller than some people, and always taller than anyone else (even males), add to the fact the medical examiner can’t get his facts straight, lead me to believe he’s over 6 foot. I’m not rallyin for anything, other than, I’m good at judging height (I should work at a carnival). So if anything, I’m trying to prove to myself, I’m not insane in thinking he’s the same height as me. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/416 "2013-07-15T17:07:13Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What’s shocking about the term “white Hispanic”? > > Something like 37% of all Hispanics in the US consider themselves white and the percentage of Hispanics in Florida who believe this is even higher for obvious reasons. > > I’m pretty sure our own Red Fury considers himself both. Apologies to Señor Fury if I’m wrong. I don’t care for the “Hispanic” tag but it’s required under “ethnic background” then they name a few countries from Latin America with the most immigrants and if you don’t belong to then they ask you to list “other” and specify. So it goes like this Hispanic -\>other-\>Spaniard-\>white Only “racism” I ever experienced in the US is when I say my name and people respond: “But you don’t look Hispanic at all nor do you have an accent” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/417 "2013-07-15T17:10:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why Zimmerman was following Martin means 'D" for diddly squat. This whole tragic circumstance rotates on one axis, the decision by M to play a “gangsta” and punch out Zimmerman. Had he just talked to him, instead of hitting him, none of this would be happening now. He didn’t, and his decision is the crux of the biscuit. > > Martin is responsible for the death of Martin. Period. Full stop. Trayvon Martin is dead because Z made the wrong decision - that is, to punch Zimmerman in response to a question. Or not. We don’t know how the fight started, or even who threw the first punch. I think (just an opinion here, based on the little that’s actually known about what went down that night) it’s just as possible that Trayvon felt reasonable fear for his life. But we’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/418 "2013-07-15T17:11:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Martin is responsible for the death of Martin. Period. Full stop. Trayvon Martin is dead because Z made the wrong decision - that is, to punch Zimmerman in response to a question. You don’t _know_ that he did. You weren’t there, and we have no solid evidence that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first. What we do know for sure is that Zimmerman made a stupid error of judgment in assuming a person engaged in legal, unsuspicious behaviour of no significance was a criminal, and then inserted himself into a situation that didn’t need him in it. That we know for sure. And had he not done it, nobody would have gotten hurt. Whatever moral responsibility Martin bears - which we’ll never know for sure, since he is dead, and Zimmerman is not a reliable witness - Zimmerman must also bear moral responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/419 "2013-07-15T17:18:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Or not. We don’t know how the fight started, or even who threw the first punch. I think (just an opinion here, based on the little that’s actually known about what went down that night) it’s just as possible that Trayvon felt reasonable fear for his life. But we’ll never know. He did not have to fear for his life in order to throw a punch. That is not considered lethal force, and non-lethal force can be used to protect oneself against a reasonable fear of imminent harm by another using force against you. We know that he was afraid because he said so to Jeantel. Therefore, if Zimmerman did anything at all that under the circumstances Martin could reasonably perceive as a prequel to greater harm, even if Zimmerman only reached out, without actually making contact, Martin would be justified in using nonlethal force to protect himself. And for myself I am absolutely sure that is precisely what occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/420 "2013-07-15T17:22:48Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > He did not have to fear for his life in order to throw a punch. That is not considered lethal force, and non-lethal force can be used to protect oneself against a reasonable fear of imminent harm by another using force against you. We know that he was afraid because he said so to Jeantel. Therefore, if Zimmerman did anything at all that under the circumstances Martin could reasonably perceive as a prequel to greater harm, even if Zimmerman only reached out, without actually making contact, Martin would be justified in using nonlethal force to protect himself. And for myself I am absolutely sure that is precisely what occurred. Doesn’t justify him using the lethal force he used after that point, when he smashed Zimmerman’s head against the ground. Of course, that you are sure of what happened when the evidence clearly shows you’re wrong just shows how much of a fucking idiot you are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=22)