# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/541 "2013-07-16T22:35:59Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > But simplifying…if the officer heard a scream, No: > [@](#): > > The officer never testifies that he heard anyone screaming. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/542 "2013-07-16T22:54:03Z")
Another thing about the juror that troubles me is that she says she was impressed by Serino’s assessment of GZ’s credibility. The jury was explicitly instructed to disregard this opinion. So it’s clear to me that this juror is an attention whore of the first degree. She needs to sit her Chatty Kathy ass down somewhere and STFU. She’s not helping people feel better about the verdict. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/543 "2013-07-16T23:02:29Z")
From here: [http://news.yahoo.com/juror-wanted-convict-zimmerman-initially-032442318.html](http://news.yahoo.com/juror-wanted-convict-zimmerman-initially-032442318.html) > [@](#): > > The juror said Sanford Police Detective Chris Serino made a big impression on her, because he would have been accustomed to dealing with murders and similar cases. He would have known how to spot a liar, and yet he testified that he believed Zimmerman, the juror said. WTF. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/544 "2013-07-16T23:07:20Z")
The prosecution should have objected to the line of testimony faster. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/545 "2013-07-16T23:29:49Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, of course not! Its clear that Martin was laying a trap from the very beginning, what with being all gangster in a gated community, and recklessly eyeballing \*private property \*that he had no business looking at. > > His every action was calculated to lure Z into the situation where he could pounce upon him! And looking like he was on drugs, that’s a dead giveaway, he didn’t have to go around looking like he was on drugs! He just put on that “I’m on drugs!” look to get Z to notice him. Of course, the Skittles was a mistake, people on drugs go to the 7-11 and get nachos. But maybe he figured that Z wouldn’t know that. > > But thanks for the insight into the way your mind works, its kinda like reading a Lovecraft novel. I feel for you; I’ve been here. It won’t work, though; it’s like beating your head against a particularly stupid brick wall that’s incapable of empathizing with a scared kid. You’ll go insane trying to reason with them. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/546 "2013-07-16T23:35:56Z")
The time frame in question was very small and involved Zimmerman getting beat up with no way to retreat (he said), and using force under those conditions is justifiable everywhere. The prosecution had to prove that he was lying. That’s why some of us thought pursuing a murder conviction was a waste of time, and why SYG does not have to apply regardless of what individual jurors might think. Like other things, I think the SYG term has been thrown around to create impressions. IANAL, but was present at some meetings where SYG legislation was discussed before being implemented, and recorded some strong objections from law enforcement. Basically the police suggested that criminals would be its biggest supporters. So there are provisions included that try to prevent aggressors from gaining legal protections for killing people. Now that Zimmerman has been found not guilty of murder, it was reported that he’s expecting to be granted immunity under the SYG statutes to any civil action stemming from his shooting of Martin. To me, these are two different things - seeking immunity means the burden of proof is on Zimmerman, not the state. I don’t know if beating a murder charge is equal to proof of acting lawfully under the statute, and apparently a lot of experts don’t either - I’ve checked - but it might be a very different thing if Zimmerman has to prove his case instead of the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/547 "2013-07-16T23:38:43Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The prosecution should have objected to the line of testimony faster. I know. And I guess since everything’s all said and done, there’s nothing to be done to address this. But it just makes me wonder what was the frickin’ point of the exercise. At least based on this juror’s interviews, it’s clear to me that following the spirit and the intent of the law was not on her mind. She had sympathy for GZ and thought he’d learned his lesson. This was enough for her. That doesn’t sound like someone who soberly evaluated the facts and evidence of the case, or even cares enough to pay lip service to them. That sounds like someone who stepped into that jury box with her mind all ready made up. And she’s just throwing fuel on the fire. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/548 "2013-07-16T23:51:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > T > No, it’s an observable fact. I observe it using my ears, listening to the tape recording of the call. Prior to the dispatcher advising him not to follow, you can hear wind noise and heavy breathing. After that, you can’t. He stopped, and we can observe it as clearly as if we had video of it. Belief is irrelevant, it remains a fact regardless of your, or my, belief. > > That you continue to ignore the evidence doesn’t surprise me, but it does make your beliefs, and your claim it’s not proven, false. Stopping for a moment doesn’t mean he stayed stopped, and as endlessly shown, he gave every indication that he would continue. But you go ahead leaning on the fact that in that moment he wasn’t actively moving so that meant he would remain in that spot forever. Or wander aimlessly, requiring the police to call him. yadda. yadda. You got your wish, he’s walking away a free man after killing a kid because he was a stupid, irresponsible asshole lying through his teeth. He convinced the (evidently already convinced and none-too-bright) jury. Rejoice! ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/549 "2013-07-17T00:40:57Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Sadly, individual jury embers’ stories confirm this to be a deciding point. They might say one thing but from the other side of their mouths come nuggets like this: > [@](#): > > “I think both were responsible for the situation they had gotten themselves into,” said the juror. “I think they both could have walked away.” > > The juror said Sanford Police Detective Chris Serino made a big impression on her, because he would have been accustomed to dealing with murders and similar cases. He would have known how to spot a liar, and yet he testified that he believed Zimmerman, the juror said. from the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/zimmerman-juror-says-sanford-detective-made-big-impression-planning-to-write-a-book/2013/07/15/ce4afbb2-edb1-11e2-bb32-725c8351a69e_story.html) I believe the idea that bad legislation is the main cause for this verdict is one more falsehood being kicked around in our discussion, as an unconscious effort to minimize the racial dimension. If this was all about SYG, there would be no reason for the jurors to be pinning any blame on the kid who was shot. If this was all about SYG, there would no reason for the jury to be factoring Serino’s inadmissible testimony about Zimmerman’s truthfulness into their analysis. If this was all about SYG, you wouldn’t have jurors saying that Zimmerman’s “[heart was in the right place](http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/16/zimmerman-trayvon-juror-b37/2521529/)”, as if that stands in the way of a manslaughter conviction. To be completely frank, until America stops trying to blame this on everything except racism and a defense counsel that profited from a virulent media campaign against kid a whose only crime was looking like Zimmerman’s idea of a bad person, we are going to continue took look gaping idiots in the eyes of future generations. This jury was tainted with bias. The same bias that caused Zimmerman to report the kid as suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ea666f/32.png) [@IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IgnoranceIsMyExcuse)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/550 "2013-07-17T00:46:34Z")
The discussion surrounding the trial is about race, but the trial itself had little to do with race (in my opinion). This op-ed from the WSJ is interesting: > **[Jason Riley: Race, Politics and the Zimmerman Trial](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323394504578608182550247030)** > > In The Wall Street Journal, Jason Riley writes that the left wants to blame black criminality on racial animus and 'the system,' but blacks have long been part of running that system. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/551 "2013-07-17T00:52:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > He called black people “feral proto-humans”. Nope. He did not. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/552 "2013-07-17T01:19:01Z")
From the WSJ article just posted > [@](#): > > Did the perception of black criminality play a role in Martin’s death? We may never know for certain, but we do know that those negative perceptions of young black men are rooted in hard data on who commits crimes. We also know that young black men will not change how they are perceived until they change how they behave. Young black men have always been perceived as threats. “Hard data” is not where this attitude comes from. These attitudes are as old as slavery. White folks were scared of black men the second they stepped off the boat. Even when black folks were oppressed into submission by Jim Crow and segregation, their mere presence struck fear into the hearts of cowardly white idiots. Trayvon was 17 years old. Too young to pay the price for someone else’s negative programming. Is the author’s point “Well, sucks to be him, but it’s not our fault if society cares so little about him?” Because if that’s the case, he could’ve just wrote that instead of including all that filler about black criminality. If we’re talking about a racist judicial system (which we are, let’s stop the delusions), then data that allows people to talk like experts about black criminality automatically comes under scrunity. It’s funny, though. Most crimes in general are perpetrated by men. Guess this “hard data” means I could put a bulllet into a random white guy walking down the street and use people’s anti-male biases to get away with it, and no one will complain about this injustice, huh? Everybody will just shrug and say “well, I guess men need to look at what they are doing so this kind of thing doesn’t happen again.” Yup, totally can this happening. Maybe someone crazier than me will try out this experiment. ---
**Author:** ![IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ea666f/32.png) [@IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IgnoranceIsMyExcuse)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/553 "2013-07-17T02:25:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > From the WSJ article just posted > > Young black men have always been perceived as threats. “Hard data” is not where this attitude comes from. These attitudes are as old as slavery. White folks were scared of black men the second they stepped off the boat. Even when black folks were oppressed into submission by Jim Crow and segregation, their mere presence struck fear into the hearts of cowardly white idiots. > > Trayvon was 17 years old. Too young to pay the price for someone else’s negative programming. Is the author’s point “Well, sucks to be him, but it’s not our fault if society cares so little about him?” Because if that’s the case, he could’ve just wrote that instead of including all that filler about black criminality. If we’re talking about a racist judicial system (which we are, let’s stop the delusions), then data that allows people to talk like experts about black criminality automatically comes under scrunity. > > It’s funny, though. Most crimes in general are perpetrated by men. Guess this “hard data” means I could put a bulllet into a random white guy walking down the street and use people’s anti-male biases to get away with it, and no one will complain about this injustice, huh? Everybody will just shrug and say “well, I guess men need to look at what they are doing so this kind of thing doesn’t happen again.” Yup, totally can this happening. Maybe someone crazier than me will try out this experiment. And most crimes are committed on Earth, so aliens would be justified in zapping our planet. I’m most curious about why you think the judicial system is “racist.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/554 "2013-07-17T02:32:18Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I know. And I guess since everything’s all said and done, there’s nothing to be done to address this. > > But it just makes me wonder what was the frickin’ point of the exercise. At least based on this juror’s interviews, it’s clear to me that following the spirit and the intent of the law was not on her mind. She had sympathy for GZ and thought he’d learned his lesson. This was enough for her. That doesn’t sound like someone who soberly evaluated the facts and evidence of the case, or even cares enough to pay lip service to them. That sounds like someone who stepped into that jury box with her mind all ready made up. > > And she’s just throwing fuel on the fire. Jury selection is (despite hundreds of people who make a good living doing nothing else) as much an art as it is a science. If nothing else, it proves that profiling is of limited use as a law enforcement technique. ---
**Author:** ![IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ea666f/32.png) [@IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IgnoranceIsMyExcuse)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/555 "2013-07-17T02:35:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If some people in that jury walked out of deliberations thinking that poor Georgie has suffered enough already, then we can safely say a conviction was never in the cards. It doesn’t matter how the law is written. We are tallking about attitudes and biases that were brought into the courtroom and influenced how the jury looked at the evidence. That’s true of juries in general. If I were King of the World, there’d be no civil jury trials for exactly this reason. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/556 "2013-07-17T04:17:08Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I note of course you’ve only queried one point from my statement above. Should I assume you accept he was rash not to identify himself as neighbourhood watch, and rash to conclude that someone was up to no good because they were “walking casually”. Or that hitting someone may be a wise thing to do if you see they have a gun? No, you should not assume that. You should remember that Zimmerman stopped following Martin, that Martin decided to, instead of going home, come back and confront Zimmerman, and realise that it’s not Zimmerman who acted rashly. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/557 "2013-07-17T04:57:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. He did not. He used the phrase “feral proto-humans,” and as that was shortly followed by “Euro Americans” (named as those who should start buying guns now), you know very well the phrase was not a colorblind term for the criminal class, of which Martin was no part in any case. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/558 "2013-07-17T05:57:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, you should not assume that. You should remember that Zimmerman stopped following Martin, that Martin decided to, instead of going home, come back and confront Zimmerman, and realise that it’s not Zimmerman who acted rashly. Actually, remember _ **what the evidence is** _: Zimmerman paused towards the end of the phone call with NEN, and was banging his flashlight. During her phone call with Martin, Jeantel urged him to run and he declined, stating he was (correct me if this is incorrect) “right by” his father’s. Shortly after that, Jeantel heard Martin say “Why are you following me” and someone else say “Why are you here”. That’s the evidence. What you infer from that, and whatever other evidence you believe bears, is up to you, along with the conclusions about who acted rashly. Steophan’s forceful assertions about what is and is not fact are his own beliefs, you are in no way obligated to accept any of them as the reality. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/559 "2013-07-17T06:06:01Z")
As to the public statements of the public juror, known as B37, this just in: [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201\_162-57594076/4-zimmerman-trial-jurors-distance-themselves-from-juror-b37/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57594076/4-zimmerman-trial-jurors-distance-themselves-from-juror-b37/) **4 Zimmerman trial jurors distance themselves from Juror B37** Sketchy, at this point and possibly forever, but four other jurors say: > [@](#): > > …“The opinions of Juror B37, expressed on the Anderson Cooper show were her own, and not in any way representative of the jurors listed below,” said the statement, signed by Jurors B51, B76, E6 and E40… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/560 "2013-07-17T07:25:35Z")
If I read **G. Kumquat’s** timeline right, there appears to be about one minute’s worth of time between the first hostile words and the death of Martin. Including, as I understand, some twenty different slammings of Z’s head on the sidewalk. Talk about beating a rapid tattoo! It must have been like _The Flight of the Bumblebee_ arranged for skull and sidewalk. _Fortissimo! Presto!_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=29)