# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/701 "2013-07-18T14:33:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The clear inference from **aldiboronti** ’s use of the quote- not from the quote itself, because King obviously wasn’t talking about Martin- is that Martin was at fault, because “hey, blacks commit a lot of crimes; just look what MLK said!” That _is_ offensive. It’s no different than the idiots whooping about Martin rotting “like he deserves”. That’s a “clear inference”? No. It’s not. You just made it up. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/702 "2013-07-18T14:42:20Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > We have enough evidence from various sources to have a good idea. That’s why I said 99%. There’s always the chance that aliens or ghosts did it. We have no clear evidence regarding how the confrontation _started_, really. The time between Zimmerman going in behind the houses after Martin and he and Martin fighting is something of a black hole, aside from Martin’s friend’s testimony about what Martin said on the phone, which certainly does not clearly indicate what happened. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/703 "2013-07-18T14:42:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So, again, can you point to any posts you made during the trial that reveal how you thought the prosecution was botching their case? > > DID you make any such posts? Lol. Why do you need to see such posts? Oh I see! Since you can’t find any evidence of me trumpeting the prosecution’s inevitable victory–despite your desperate sifting through multiple threads in search of my posts–now you gotta fault me for not sufficiently slamming them during the proceedings. I withheld judgement until all the facts came in. Just like I chose to refrain from judging the jury until they gave me a reason to judge them. These are foreign concepts to you, I know. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/704 "2013-07-18T15:04:43Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That’s a “clear inference”? No. It’s not. You just made it up. You’re entitled to your opinion. What do _you_ think he meant by it? ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/705 "2013-07-18T15:05:27Z")
I’m late to the party and am completely ignorant of the facts of this so-called Zimmerman Trial Circus. But, there seems to be much buzz about it concerning extenuating circumstances, making it an excellent case for debate. So, if one of you will kindly bring me up to speed on the specifics, I will create thought provoking topics for us to discuss and debate—perhaps writing an OP or two for each SD board, including the Barn House (there may very well be some relevancy to fixing up old houses). I’d rather read a short, concise, grammatically correct synopsis from one of the smart Dopers than trudge though the myriad of previous posts in this thread, because, no offense, my motto is, _“if I didn’t write it, it’s hardly worth reading.”_ So, this Zimmerman fellow, I take it he’s a Jew, right? And the Martian lad…some type of extraterrestrial? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/706 "2013-07-18T15:13:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Lol. Why do you need to see such posts? Oh I see! Since you can’t find any evidence of me trumpeting the prosecution’s inevitable victory–despite your desperate sifting through multiple threads in search of my posts–now you gotta fault me for not sufficiently slamming them during the proceedings. > > I withheld judgement until all the facts came in. Just like I chose to refrain from judging the jury until they gave me a reason to judge them. These are foreign concepts to you, I know. Except you didn’t “withhold judgement until all the facts came in.” I can easily find posts – I provided a few, and can provide more if you like – in which you denigrate the defense. You were very willing to point out in specific and lengthy detail where you believed the defense had stumbled. You didn’t post one word that I can find showing you thought the prosecution was “botching it.” You posted lots of words that are fairly summarized as “the defense is botching it.” Isn’t that true? Why won’t you just admit it? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/707 "2013-07-18T15:15:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re entitled to your opinion. What do _you_ think he meant by it? Read the WSJ article. I think it made some good points. You can think whatever you want about the quote and what it means MLK might have thought about Zimmerman. I just ask **Damuri Ajashi** and you not to put words into my mouth that I clearly didn’t say. I was bemused to see someone call a statement by MLK racially offensive. That’s all. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. Today’s political correctness has run so far off the rails that someone making the same statements MLK did in the '60’s now might very well be viewed as a racist by some. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/708 "2013-07-18T15:21:19Z")
Evidence point I am having a hard time looking up. I _seem_ to recall seeing a layout of the crime scene that shows where Martin’s body was and its relative distance to houses, street and, most importantly, the sidewalk. Anybody have that, with link? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/709 "2013-07-18T15:23:30Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I would have preferred that **LonsomePolecat** had not been banned. I believe what he said is what most of Zimmerman’s defenders on this board feel and the fact that he was stupid enough to explicitly say it was refreshing. Well then your mom is a fucking whore of a cunt if she raised you to believe this. I believe that all the Martin supporters are evil goat felching racists who don’t give a shit about facts and evidence and support a mob mentality to lynch someone simply because they don’t like him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/710 "2013-07-18T15:32:09Z")
Especially poignant when you remember America’s long and sad history of lynching innocent white men for alleged crimes against black people. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/711 "2013-07-18T15:33:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Except you didn’t “withhold judgement until all the facts came in.” I can easily find posts – I provided a few, and can provide more if you like – in which you denigrate the defense. Hell yeah, I denigrated the defense and I will continue to do so. From the day O’Mara took on this case, the defense used the media to portray the kid as as thug by exploiting the public’s racist assumptions. They went out of their way to taint the jury, they peddled lies about the victim to the press that actually applied to their client (like the MMA thing), and they played dirty in court (for instance, by asking Serino questions that they knew would elicit inadmissible testimony). Why wouldn’t I judge them for these things? They are unethical lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![Nothar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nothar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nothar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/712 "2013-07-18T15:58:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Especially poignant when you remember America’s long and sad history of lynching innocent white men for alleged crimes against black people. No the sad fact is that it is a relatively recent discourse that many people seem to think that the history of racism or prejudice in a country as a whole should be taken into account anytime a non-white person is killed by a person who sorta looks white. The knee jerk response by many in those situations is to claim racism as the motivation first and put the onus on the accused to refute the racism charge instead of the other way around. :rolleyes: There has been absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman is a racist, yet many people will still consider him to be one, because they for some reason try to read into non-racist words such as “fucking punks” or “these assholes always get away” and take that as certain proof he was racist. Or just the fact that he seemed to think Martin was suspicious makes him racist, even though there had been a string of burglaries in the neighborhood. If I see someone at night looking into houses or loitering around houses in my neighborhood, and I do not know that person, my first thought will be they are suspicious. If there had been a string of burglaries in the neighborhood, I would also assume they might be a burglar, unless that person was a little old lady over the age of 80 or a child under the age of 10. Anyone who thinks Zimmerman “profiled” Martin because he was black and not because he thought he was a burglar are fucking morons. These people are usually quick to say that Zimmerman would not have taken the same actions if the person was white, when there is absolutely no evidence that is the case, except for that they have already determined his racism on no evidence and will always assume racist motivations first and do not accept anything as proof he was not racist. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/713 "2013-07-18T16:15:07Z")
Can you specify precisely what form of “suspicious behavior” You realize, I hope, that you have accepted Z’s perception of Martin without the least shred of corroborative evidence, yes? Can you tell us why? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/714 "2013-07-18T16:20:49Z")
> [@Nothar](#): > > Anyone who thinks Zimmerman “profiled” Martin because he was black and not because he thought he was a burglar are fucking morons. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. By all indications, he thought the kid was a burglar _because he was black_. Not because he was doing anything a burglar would do. Who breaks into houses at 7pm on a Sunday? This is not primetime criminal hours and Zimmerman, if he was thinking rationally, should have known this. His assumptions about the kid were faulty no matter how you slice it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/715 "2013-07-18T16:33:45Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > His assumptions about the kid were faulty no matter how you slice it. How, exactly, was his assumption that the violent drug using thief Trayvon Martin was a criminal _false_? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/716 "2013-07-18T16:35:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. By all indications, he thought the kid was a burglar _because he was black_. Not because he was doing anything a burglar would do. Who breaks into houses at 7pm on a Sunday? This is not primetime criminal hours and Zimmerman, if he was thinking rationally, should have known this. His assumptions about the kid were faulty no matter how you slice it. Oh, it goes further—people are still insisting that Martin _actually was_ intending to burglarize houses that night, based on credulous acceptance of Zimmerman’s “standing around looking into houses” claim. As to why Martin was heading home, where any evidence besides Zimmerman laying the ground for his later actions is to support this, or why he would be carrying around a bunch of bulky junk food when trying to break into a house, well, I’ve tried to get any answers on those points and nothing doing. As for the “it’s perfectly legal and in no way threatening to follow people” crowd, well, I just hope that tonight they get followed, in the dark, through their neighborhood, by whatever big scary black boogeyman they fear most, and then they can tell us how non-threatening and perfectly normal this experience was. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/717 "2013-07-18T16:38:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How, exactly, was his assumption that the violent drug using thief Trayvon Martin was a criminal _false_? Because he didn’t have any of that information? Even if he did, how is smoking pot indicative of any relevant criminal proclivity? And how is Martin violent, or a thief? I’ve read nothing indicating either. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/718 "2013-07-18T16:52:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How, exactly, was his assumption that the violent drug using thief Trayvon Martin was a criminal _false_? You really are a fucking slimeball, you know that? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/719 "2013-07-18T16:55:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Hell yeah, I denigrated the defense and I will continue to do so. From the day O’Mara took on this case, the defense used the media to portray the kid as as thug by exploiting the public’s racist assumptions. They went out of their way to taint the jury, they peddled lies about the victim to the press that actually applied to their client (like the MMA thing), and they played dirty in court (for instance, by asking Serino questions that they knew would elicit inadmissible testimony). Why wouldn’t I judge them for these things? They are unethical lawyers. None of those things are unethical. A defense lawyer’s job is to be a zealous advocate for his client. So returning to my question. You said today that “As much as I think the prosecution botched their case at trial…” I asked you to explain when you reached that conclusion, pointing out that during the trial, you denigrated the defense and praised the prosecution. A reader following your account of the trial would never have come away from what you wrote thinking that the prosecution was botching the case. And today we learn that you did, in fact, think that the prosecution botched their case. I’m asking you to explain that discrepancy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/720 "2013-07-18T16:55:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because he didn’t have any of that information? That makes it unsupported, not false. Two different things. That’s the distinction I’m trying to get her to understand. > [@](#): > > Even if he did, how is smoking pot indicative of any relevant criminal proclivity? It’s criminal in and of itself. Probably shouldn’t be, but that’s not the point here. > [@](#): > > And how is Martin violent, or a thief? I’ve read nothing indicating either. Apart from beating the crap out of Zimmerman? There were text messages on his phone where he talked about beating people till they bled, and Jeantal claims she told him on the phone he was going to get him self killed. He was suspended from school for being caught with stolen jewellery, as well as pot. [Here’s an article](http://spectator.org/blog/2013/07/15/trayvon-crime-school-miami) that talks about the suspensions. [Here’s one](http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/10/judge-wont-allow-trayvon-martins-texts-in-zimmerman-trial/) about the text messages. Make your own mind up about the validity of the claim. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=37)