# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Nothar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Nothar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nothar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/781 "2013-07-19T02:13:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He assumed the kid was bad because he was black and outdoors in his neighborhood at night. It’s no different that someone assuming a guy is a terrorist because he looks Arab and is getting on a plane, and then calling TSA to investigate them. Zimmerman wanted the cops to come because there was no doubt in his mind the kid was a criminal. To assume he must have had a legitimate basis for drawing this conclusion means you’re excluding the possibility that he was jumping to conclusions. Why think such a ridiculous thing, when people jump to conclusions all the time? > > When black people enter high end stores and are followed around by personnel who profile them as potential shoplifters, do you think these people have to be doing anything special to invite this attention? Or is it enough for them to look black and thus, sufficiently different than “safe” customers. > > These are experiences that minorities go through all the time. If you aren’t a minority, your disbelief in the idea that Trayvon was acting like anything except a regular person means shit. I’m sorry to say. My point isnt that Zimmerman might not be a closet racist. I have no idea, and neither does anyone else that is not Zimmerman himself. Sure its possible that he thought Martin was suspicious simply because he was black. But nobody should assume that as the default assumption for somebody you do not know personally. I feel sorry for people that automatically assume racism without any proof of it. I dont disbelieve that Martin was acting “like a regular person”, whatever that means, I give credence to the evidence submitted at trial of the amount of time that passed that suggest Martin did not directly walk back to his temporary residence. You may assume that means nothing and that there is nothing wrong with stopping outside some houses in the neighborhood, if that is what happened, and that means he wasn’t acting suspicious. Even if he was not doing anything suspicious in your opinion, that does not mean it would not be reasonable for a 3rd party to see it as suspicious given the past history of burglaries in the neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/782 "2013-07-19T02:16:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is there some reason to do that? Would she do it for me, were our situations reversed? I’m going to repeat this again: Can you please get a life and stop stalking the fuck out of me? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/783 "2013-07-19T02:16:53Z")
> [@Tequila\_Party](#): > > I’ll try one more time and speak slower. > > Because > > you > > are > > coming > > off > > as > > unhinged. > > Doesn’t matter what anyone else would do or if she, gasp, gets away with a wrong opinion. Save your blood pressure. The only person you can control is you. And even if you keep going on and on at her like some demanding deranged monkey, that doesn’t mean she’ll answer you. Why? Because no matter how worked up you get, you can’t _make_ her do anything. So, I repeat that you ought to let it go. Otherwise, you might just turn into the board loon. > > Unless that’s your goal. I appreciate the advice. But you are coming in to this at the end of over a year of exchanges between me and her, and in my view your judgement is not as informed as it might otherwise be. But again, thank you for the concern. It is appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/784 "2013-07-19T02:17:27Z")
> [@Nothar](#): > > I do not believe that Martin was simply walking through the neighborhood on his way to the house he was staying in as he would have arrived there sooner than he did. Really, so then what exactly do you think Martin was doing if you think he was doing more than walking home after grabbing some skittles and ice tea from a convenience store? > [@](#): > > **You With The Face** > If you aren’t a minority, your disbelief in the idea that Trayvon was acting like anything except a regular person means shit While I largely agree with most of your post and found Nothar’s post quite foolish, George Zimmerman, his brother, and his mother are also minorities and they clearly had different opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/785 "2013-07-19T02:20:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Do you happen to recall the phrase that supposedly motivates this message board’s mission? You have little interest in seeking the truth. You’re interested in proving your case - arguing that what you’re thinking is right. It’s something a good lawyer does in the courtroom. It’s far, far less impressive when it’s done elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/786 "2013-07-19T02:23:23Z")
> [@Ibn Warren](#): > > While I largely agree with most of your post and found Nothar’s post quite foolish, George Zimmerman, his brother, and his mother are also minorities and they clearly had different opinions. Well, I’m not making any statements about what minorities believe. Minorities might believe in any number of things depending on who they are. I’m just saying if someone is NOT a minority, their disbelief that an innocent person could be unfairly profiled means shit. Because they are the ones with the least experience with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/787 "2013-07-19T02:23:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m going to repeat this again: Can you please get a life and stop stalking the fuck out of me? In my view, this is not stalking. Why do you believe you shouldn’t be accountable for not telling the truth, anyway? Why do you want me to ignore the fact that you spent the whole trial saying how badly the defense was doing, and how well the prosecution was doing, only to lat reveal you thought the prosecution was botching it? This is particularly upsetting because I (and others) challenged you on the analysis several times; you insisted that you felt the prosecution was doing well. Why, now, do you expect that I, and I guess everyone else, should just pretend that didn’t happen? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/788 "2013-07-19T02:24:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Really, so then what exactly do you think Martin was doing if you think he was doing more than walking home after grabbing some skittles and ice tea from a convenience store? … I’m thinking he didn’t really want anything from the Eleventy-Seven. I think maybe he wanted a bit of privacy while talking to a girl on the phone. I’m told young people often prefer to have such conversations out of earshot of a parent. Of course, if he kept up a brisk pace, he might have gotten home sooner. Who says he wanted to? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/789 "2013-07-19T02:24:57Z")
> [@Randolph](#): > > You have little interest in seeking the truth. You’re interested in proving your case - arguing that what you’re thinking is right. It’s something a good lawyer does in the courtroom. It’s far, far less impressive when it’s done elsewhere. Isn’t this the truth I am after now? Speak plainly, please – what is untruthful about what I am asking here? Aren’t you really just saying I should let her have the dignity of not having to admit she was not being truthful? ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/790 "2013-07-19T02:27:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Isn’t this the truth I am after now? > > Speak plainly, please – what is untruthful about what I am asking here? Sorry, won’t play your game. Please consider therapy. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/791 "2013-07-19T02:27:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In my view, this is not stalking. That’s what Zimmerman said. You and him have things in common. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/792 "2013-07-19T02:30:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > That’s what Zimmerman said. > > You and him have things in common. And you were not at all reticent about saying Zimmerman lied. And yet when I highlight an apparent lie from you, and ask you to explain, you cannot. So it appears you and Zimmerman share a more serious trait. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/793 "2013-07-19T02:41:04Z")
Bald? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/794 "2013-07-19T02:48:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Bald? Lying. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/795 "2013-07-19T03:26:36Z")
Not sure which thread this belongs in, so a MOD can move it if need be. TM had a destination and was only going there, not creeping around. It was his dad’s or step dad’s place right? GZ was on the lookout for people up to no good. He saw someone he thought matched that description, and called the cops. They told him to not follow. He did anyways. He had a per-conceived notion about this person’s intentions as evidenced by his statements “these assholes always get away”. He pursued TM. He had a gun, ready to fire, and knew that he had lethal force at his finger tip. He was supposedly just following the guy so he could help the cops interrogate the guy. His role as an observer changed to one of a participant the moment he got within physical range of TM. He should have backed off, or maybe even displayed his weapon. Either of those would have prevented a hand to hand situation. GZ got close enough to TM and presented enough of a threat to him, that an altercation occurred. This altercation would NOT have happened had GZ kept his distance. TM was being actively pursued by an individual who was not law enforcement, did not identify themselves as such, and was stalking him for a period of time. Who’s to say TM wasn’t defending himself? I doubt he would have charged a pistol wielding “neighborhood watch” psycho packing heat. GZ, by his own admission, put himself into that situation. He was free to leave it to the cops at any time, and chose not to. He was the one that was armed, and he got close enough to the person he was trailing in order for there to be an altercation. In this altercation, he shot his prey in the chest, in the heart no less. He brought a lethal weapon with him when he confronted someone he had no business confronting at all. If TM did the confronting, he was protecting himself against some random guy in the street, not an identifiable member of law enforcement. GZ should not have been pursuing TM at all, and had he produced his weapon prior to them being in proximity, the situation would have ended differently. GZ’s story is “I was trying to prevent crime, so I followed this guy with a gun on me, and we got too close. He was beating me up, so I killed him.” WTF? GZ brought a gun to what wasn’t even going to be a fight. He made it one by either antagonizing, or proximity or both. He killed a kid, and it was justified because he was scared after he went at a kid with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/796 "2013-07-19T04:11:11Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Can you please get a life and stop stalking the fuck out of me? You should probably stop throwing words like “stalking” around so casually. It was bad enough when you used it to refer to Zimmerman, but to use it about someone you’re voluntarily communicating with is both fucking retarded and an insult to people who have actually been stalked. ---
**Author:** ![fudrucker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fudrucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fudrucker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/797 "2013-07-19T05:00:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think “the left” tends to think you’re not worth engaging when you call them Marxists. Of course not. The far left in this country are exactly that; Marxists. But they hate being exposed for their true ideology. Cock roaches always run for the shadows when you turn the lights on. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think they’re probably right. Hmmm, now why doesn’t that surprise me? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/798 "2013-07-19T06:10:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, Trayvon Martin was an alleged thief who presented himself as a violent drug user. Is that better? So Zimmerman was allegedly a domestic abuser and a bunch of other shit we hand wave away. > [@Steophan](#): > > Whether it’s true or false. Zimmerman found Martin suspicious and, shortly afterwards, was on the receiving end of a beating that was, as far as we can tell, unprovoked. As far as we can tell, he tried to buttfuck Martin right before the shooting too. All we have is Zimmerman’s word. We don’t know what the fuck happened that night and while there isn’t enough to convict, some of you are acting like Zimmerman’s testimony is fact. > [@](#): > > It turns out that Martin had done plenty of other suspicious things in the previous months. Explain to me how that makes him wrong to be suspicious. Because he didn’t know about that other suspicious shit. All he knew was that Martin was a young black male and the neighborhood had suffered from robberies by young black males. I don’t fault him for his suspicion at an unfamiliar young black male but can we stop trying to vilify the dead boy with shit that is not irrelevant to Zimmerman’s state of mind at the time he started following Martin? it makes you look like a real racist asshole. > [@Debaser](#): > > Are you still mixing me up with other posters or something? I’ve already laid this all out for you. I didn’t say anything about it. Martin Luther King did. I didn’t even post it to the thread. Another poster did. I wasn’t referring to you. I was summarizing the editorial and the initial presentation of the editorial which you seemed to endorse. If you were simply saying that MLK said something about black criminality and that you weren’t making any inference between what MLK said and the current situation then I guess its just my mistake. > [@Bricker](#): > > Why, pray tell, are we permitted to demand proof when Zimmerman is being accused, but when Martin’s misdeeds are on the table, the barest hint of a rumor is sufficient? Because Martin is black. Haven’t you been paying attention? > [@Section\_Maker\_Jupe](#): > > Was Zimmermans gun latched in its holster and did it have a safety? I read(after some Googling) that his gun had a “hard trigger pull” versus a “soft pull” to release its “internal” safety, and I wondered if someone could clarify that here. I have limited knowledge of weapons. AFAICT his gun is [Kel-Tec PF-9 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kel-Tec_PF-9) I do not see a manual safety. The only thing that it seems to have is an internal drop safety (so it doesn’t go off when you drop it (the internal safety disengages halfway through your trigger pull). It is a double action gun which means that each pull of the trigger both cocks and releases the hammer. This means a longer trigger pull than a single action or double action/single action gun (that has been cocked or racked). > [@](#): > > I ask because I was thinking if it would be difficult to one handedly unsnap a gun and the safety in the middle of a fight. Or, the implication, did Zimmerman have his hand on his weapon already, as he was hit and went down? It really depends on the holster. Some holsters would make it virtually impossible to draw your gun while you were on your back unless you could get some space between the ground and your holster others have little more than a velcro tab to keep your gun from falling out. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/799 "2013-07-19T08:30:10Z")
> [@Tequila\_Party](#): > > I’ll try one more time and speak slower. > > Because > > you > > are > > coming > > off > > as > > unhinged. > > Doesn’t matter what anyone else would do or if she, gasp, gets away with a wrong opinion. Save your blood pressure. The only person you can control is you.\*\* And even if you keep going on and on at her like some demanding deranged monkey, that doesn’t mean she’ll answer you. Why? Because no matter how worked up you get, you can’t _make_ her do anything. So, I repeat that you ought to let it go. Otherwise, you might just turn into the board loon. \*\* > > Unless that’s your goal. Pah ha ha (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/800 "2013-07-19T09:01:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Haven’t you been paying attention? This **is** one. > Some AA commentator, I forget who, recently remarked, “Only in America could a black boy be put on trial after he’s dead.” I heard it as only in america could a black boy be put on trial for his own murder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=41)