# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/801 "2013-07-19T09:35:21Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I heard it as only in america could a black boy be put on trial for his own murder. He wasn’t murdered. There was a trial, remember? Oh yeah, you didn’t bother following it cos you magically know all the answers without needing to refer to the facts. A legal killing is, by definition, not murder. Unless you have reason to think someone other than Zimmerman killed him, he was not murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/802 "2013-07-19T10:19:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There was a trial, remember? Oh yeah, you didn’t bother following it cos you magically know all the answers without needing to refer to the facts. This is a false statement. The facts are all accessible directly, and I have been accessing them directly since last year. I refer to the facts constantly, and always have. And he was murdered, but his murderer was acquitted. That does not change the fact that he was murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/803 "2013-07-19T10:20:47Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Well then your mom is a fucking whore of a cunt if she raised you to believe this. I believe that all the Martin supporters are evil goat felching racists who don’t give a shit about facts and evidence and support a mob mentality to lynch someone simply because they don’t like him. I wonder…does anyone really feel wounded when someone talks to them this way? Doe the speaker hope to wound, or merely to vent? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/804 "2013-07-19T10:22:41Z")
> [@Nothar](#): > > There has been absolutely no evidence that Zimmerman is a racist, yet many people will still consider him to be one, because they for some reason try to read into non-racist words such as “fucking punks” or “these assholes always get away” and take that as certain proof he was racist. I’ve never thought he was racist, just a raging asshole. The system, however, IS racist. ---
**Author:** ![Tequila\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a6a055/32.png) [@Tequila\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tequila_Party)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/805 "2013-07-19T11:51:48Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Pah ha ha (bolding mine) You’re absolutely right, liar. You can’t make some asshole idiot who misrepresented you tell the truth, apologize or act like a decent human being when they should step up and do the right thing. And if anyone should know that, it’d be you. Right, liar? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/806 "2013-07-19T13:44:07Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And he was murdered, but his murderer was acquitted. That does not change the fact that he was murdered. It means that he wasn’t murdered by Zimmerman. He was found not guilty of murder, remember? By the finders of _fact_, the jury? So, if he was murdered, who murdered him? Because the _fact_ is that he was lawfully killed by Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/807 "2013-07-19T13:48:10Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And he was murdered, but his murderer was acquitted. That does not change the fact that he was murdered. Ugh. So much ignorance. In addition to Steophan’s astute comments, note that whether or not a murder occurred is always a matter of opinion. It’s not a fact. And the only opinion that matters is that of the jury. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/808 "2013-07-19T14:15:37Z")
Nicole Simpson’s family can now rest easy knowing she wasn’t murdered either, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/809 "2013-07-19T14:39:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > At least tell me the screwdriver got a stiff sentence. Here is the documentation: [Trayvon Martin MDSPD Reports - Tagle Attachment Pgs 90-102 | PDF](http://www.scribd.com/doc/145934678) And yes, they blacked out Trayvon Martin’s name, but you can tell in several places they are talking about him, and they missed his initials ™ in a couple of places as well. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/810 "2013-07-19T19:06:53Z")
> [@fudrucker](#): > > Hmmm, now why doesn’t that surprise me? Because you aren’t dumb enough to believe your own bullshit, I expect. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/811 "2013-07-19T19:12:32Z")
> [@Tequila\_Party](#): > > You’re absolutely right, liar. You can’t make some asshole idiot who misrepresented you tell the truth, apologize or act like a decent human being when they should step up and do the right thing. And if anyone should know that, it’d be you. Right, liar? Wow. “Save your blood pressure. The only person you can control is you.” The voice of reason apparently doesn’t like it when it’s his ox being gored. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/812 "2013-07-19T19:33:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It means that he wasn’t murdered by Zimmerman. He was found not guilty of murder, remember? By the finders of _fact_, the jury? > > So, if he was murdered, who murdered him? Because the _fact_ is that he was lawfully killed by Zimmerman. It’s perfectly reasonable for a person to still hold the opinion Zimmerman murdered him despite the fact that it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt the murder occurred. Not all murderers are convicted. (You also remain strangely confused between the concept of a “Not guilty” verdict and the affirmative claim that a homicide is definitely legal.) I’m going to go out on a limb and say O.J. Simpson murdered his wife. A jury acquitted him, and so the legal system goes, but you know what? In my opinion he’s a murderer. What do you think of that? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/813 "2013-07-19T19:50:56Z")
Are you kidding? This is **Bricker**. From years of observing his particular dysfunction, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he asserted that [Hermann Göring](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) was unjustly convicted because he was not convicted in Germany by a jury of his peers. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/814 "2013-07-19T19:53:08Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Are you kidding? This is **Bricker**. From years of observing his particular dysfunction, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he asserted that [Hermann Göring](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) was unjustly convicted because he was not convicted in Germany by a jury of his peers. > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Analogy fail. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/815 "2013-07-19T20:19:56Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The facts are all accessible directly, and I have been accessing them directly since last year. I refer to the facts constantly, and always have. Wrong. You make shit up and pretend it’s a fact. There’s a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/816 "2013-07-19T20:24:09Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s perfectly reasonable for a person to still hold the opinion Zimmerman murdered him despite the fact that it could not be proven beyond a reasonable doubt the murder occurred. Not all murderers are convicted. (You also remain strangely confused between the concept of a “Not guilty” verdict and the affirmative claim that a homicide is definitely legal.) > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say O.J. Simpson murdered his wife. A jury acquitted him, and so the legal system goes, but you know what? In my opinion he’s a murderer. What do you think of that? I think that, due to Simpson having written a book where he effectively confesses to murder, I’ll accept that as evidence that he murdered his wife. For me, it would take that level of evidence to decide that the court, and specifically the jury, were wrong. For a similar reason I believe, as was discussed earlier, that Emmett Till was murdered by at least some of the defendants at that abhorrent trial, whilst still believing that the jury made the correct decision based on the evidence presented (although probably for the wrong reasons). If that sort of evidence that Martin was murdered (by Zimmerman or someone else), I’ll change my view. As it is, it seems that the opposite is true, and the evidence points towards Martin being responsible for his own death. I originally thought that Zimmerman would struggle in an immunity or civil hearing where he had to prove his innocence, but seeing how much weaker the prosecution’s evidence was that I suspected, I think it’s likely he would win that case. Short version - preponderance of evidence that Martin was murdered, or that Zimmerman is a murderer, would be enough that I’d not strongly complain about the terminology. ETA This is something of a weakening of my position that _only_ a criminal verdict would suffice. Thanks for making me think it through more clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/817 "2013-07-19T20:33:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …For a similar reason I believe, as was discussed earlier, that Emmett Till was murdered by at least some of the defendants at that abhorrent trial, whilst still believing that the jury made the correct decision based on the evidence presented (although probably for the wrong reasons). You’re joking, right? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/818 "2013-07-19T20:38:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re joking, right? No. Have you ever looked at the trial? The prosecution didn’t even manage to prove that Till was dead. The prosecution were racist scum that utterly failed to do their job, and their duty to Emmett Till. I have no doubt that the jury were similarly racist, based on interviews with them after the trial, but I do not believe that the evidence _actually produced at the trial_ supported a conviction. (I assume that’s the bit you asked about, not my view that he was, in fact, murdered by at least some of the defendants). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/819 "2013-07-19T20:38:31Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Are you kidding? This is **Bricker**. From years of observing his particular dysfunction, it wouldn’t surprise me at all if he asserted that [Hermann Göring](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring) was unjustly convicted because he was not convicted in Germany by a jury of his peers. > > :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Um… huh? Here was my response to Rand Rover: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > . . . .except that a jury found that Zimmerman validly used self-defense, so your little effort to come up with your own version of the story is just so much mental masturbation. > [@Bricker](#): > > The jury found that the state failed to prove every element of the charged crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. Even assuming, _arguendo_, that they based their acquittal on the issue of self-defense, all that means is the state failed to disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. > > In other words: the jury could have decided the self-defense story was pretty unlikely, and still acquitted. What did I say, there or in any other place in this thread, that you find incorrect? [Jimmy McNulty] what the fuck did I do? [/Jimmy McNulty] ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/820 "2013-07-19T20:40:30Z")
I have a suspicion he confused me with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=42)