# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/841 "2013-07-20T05:30:45Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Nonsense! Some of us are Anarchists (who diverged significantly from Marx). Most everybody I know outside of kinfolks and Dopers is a lefty of one stripe or another, but I don’t think I know any Marxists. Knew a guy once who was a Maoist, but last I heard, he found Jesus. Which I don’t necessarily think is a good idea, but its a definite improvement. My current People’s Revolutionary Hero of the Progressive Front is Lizzie Warren. And no, its not just because she’s so hot! ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/842 "2013-07-20T05:57:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > . . . except that you have no evidence on which to base your claim. By all accounts, Zimmerman had no issues with black people. You mean if one discounts the statements of his cousin, his ex-fiancee, and the way he regularly pissed his pants in fear when negroes dared to enter his neighborhood and he tripped over himself to call the police. Hush now, the adults are talking and they don’t like to be disturbed. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/843 "2013-07-20T07:31:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Thank you. Trayvon’s race and Zimmerman’s biases set off a chain reaction that led to the kid’s death. Whether we call those biases racism or something else, the odds are high that if he’d been a white kid, Zimmerman would have given him a lift instead of bullet. You mean, if a white guy had broken his nose, then jumped on top of him and continued to assault him, Zimmerman would have waited until he got bored then offered him a lift home? Doubtful. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You mean if one discounts the statements of his cousin, his ex-fiancee, and the way he regularly pissed his pants in fear when negroes dared to enter his neighborhood and he tripped over himself to call the police. > > Hush now, the adults are talking and they don’t like to be disturbed. Zimmerman’s neighbourhood was mixed, and there’s no reason to think he had a problem with that. Given his complaints about police racism, and his mentoring of black kids, I think it’s extremely unlikely that he did. ---
**Author:** ![Anduinel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Anduinel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduinel)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/844 "2013-07-20T08:15:23Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You mean if one discounts the statements of his cousin, his ex-fiancee, and the way he regularly pissed his pants in fear when negroes dared to enter his neighborhood and he tripped over himself to call the police. > > Hush now, the adults are talking and they don’t like to be disturbed. [Apparently, he wasn’t very fond of Mexicans either.](http://politicalblindspot.org/george-zimmermans-old-myspace-surfaces-full-of-racist-statements-and-admissions-of-criminal-activity/) ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/845 "2013-07-20T15:15:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The blogger at [http://www.theconservativetreehouse.com/](http://www.theconservativetreehouse.com/) has been working on this, filing numerous FOIA requests and following up on that with the police dept. etc. Sundance I believe is the handle. Here are a couple of relevant blogs: > > [Understanding The Real "Profilers" of Trayvon Martin - It was not George Zimmerman - The Last Refuge](http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/07/15/understanding-the-real-profilers-of-trayvon-martin-it-was-not-george-zimmerman/) > > [Failing Trayvon - The Miami-Dade School Police Department Scandal Begins To Gain Traction - The Last Refuge](http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/07/15/failing-trayvon-the-miami-dade-school-police-department-scandal-begins-to-gain-traction/) > > There are some much more extensive ones below the fold, I’d have to go hunting for them. The Conservative Treehouse isn’t exactly batting a .1000 when it comes to the truth. Don’t you remember their outing of girl after girl as being Dee Dee? And none of them being Rachel Jeantel? GREAT DOXING GUYS! And their insistence that the phone found on the scene was not Trayvon’s? And all their bizarre conspiracy theories? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/846 "2013-07-20T15:19:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You mean if one discounts the statements of his cousin, his ex-fiancee, and the way he regularly pissed his pants in fear when negroes dared to enter his neighborhood and he tripped over himself to call the police. False claim. Did you look at the list of phone calls or accept someone else’s summary? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/847 "2013-07-20T17:21:20Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > The Conservative Treehouse isn’t exactly batting a .1000 when it comes to the truth. Don’t you remember their outing of girl after girl as being Dee Dee? And none of them being Rachel Jeantel? GREAT DOXING GUYS! And their insistence that the phone found on the scene was not Trayvon’s? And all their bizarre conspiracy theories? [Trayvon Martin MDSPD Reports - Tagle Attachment Pgs 90-102 | PDF](http://www.scribd.com/doc/145934678) - this is a document, not CTH fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Passion\_of\_the\_Shrubber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@Passion\_of\_the\_Shrubber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Passion_of_the_Shrubber)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/848 "2013-07-20T20:01:13Z")
For those interested, here is the list of calls Zimmerman made to 911: [http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history](http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history) Among other things, he called police on a pothole, a garbage bag in the middle of the street, and a whole lotta black people. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/849 "2013-07-20T21:29:03Z")
> [@Passion\_of\_the\_Shrubber](#): > > For those interested, here is the list of calls Zimmerman made to 911: > > [http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history](http://www.motherjones.com/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history) > > Among other things, he called police on a pothole, a garbage bag in the middle of the street, and a whole lotta black people. Not a majority of calls, though? I mean, when you say “whole lotta,” and there are seven calls about black people, out of 47 total calls, that’s an interesting definition. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/850 "2013-07-20T22:44:04Z")
Why would he call at all? What judgement does he make? Were any of his judgments borne out, any arrests for burglary? Even any arrests? By any chance, did you read the accompanying article? > [@](#): > > …In August 2011, he called to report a black male in a tank top and shorts acting suspicious near the development’s back entrance. “_[Complainant] believes [subject] is involved in recent S-21s"—break-ins—"in the neighborhood,_” the call log states. The suspect, Zimmerman told the dispatcher, fit a recent description given out by law enforcement officers. > > Three days later, he called to report two black teens in the same area, for the same reason. "_[Juveniles] are the subjs who have been [burglarizing] in this area,"_ he told the dispatcher. > > And last month, on Feb. 2, Zimmerman called to report a suspicious black man in a leather jacket near one of the development’s units. The resident of that townhouse, Zimmerman told dispatch, was a white male. Police stopped by to investigate, but no one was there, and the residence was secure… (emphasis added) What acute criminologic perception! I cannot but wonder that he was not eagerly recruited by the local police dept.! It isn’t the simple number of calls, **Bricker** , but what those calls imply, maybe even attest. Stands to reason that at one time or another, white kids were also roaming about. Maybe they even looked like they were on drugs! But where are the proportionate number of calls? Even a direct equality wouldn’t help much, would it? If there were seven calls about unknown white kids as well as seven calls about black kids, that only works if there are the same numbers of both types living in the gated community, yes? I doubt it, but if you can show otherwise… Was there even one? Even one might offer a crumb, a scrap to cling to and exaggerate all out of proportion. But wtihout even that? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/851 "2013-07-20T23:02:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Was there even one? Even one might offer a crumb, a scrap to cling to and exaggerate all out of proportion. But wtihout even that? [This](http://www.thefacultylounge.org/2013/07/what-do-zimmermans-calls-to-police-show-about-his-view-of-black-men-.html) seems to be a good and fairly neutral examination of Zimmerman’s calls to the police. It suggests, towards the end, that one of the black men he called the police about was later identified by a burglary victim as one of the men who did it, but it doesn’t appear to have gone any further. It doesn’t look like any criminal was caught directly as a result of the calls. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/852 "2013-07-20T23:32:37Z")
A conjecture: GZ, neighborhood guardian and wannabe cop, called the cops several times for situations that he believed, for whatever reason, involved potential crime. He did not intervene further, we may assume. And nothing of any significance happened. “Fucking punks, these assholes always get away!” So this time, he went the extra step. Armed himself and took direct action. That one didn’t get away. Did he even get to eat his Skittles? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/853 "2013-07-20T23:44:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Trayvon Martin MDSPD Reports - Tagle Attachment Pgs 90-102 | PDF](http://www.scribd.com/doc/145934678) - this is a document, not CTH fantasies. As evidence, not very conclusive for judging Martin to be a thief. Less so than a restraining order is evidence that Zimmerman is violent. > [@Rand Rover](#): > > And I love how you constantly ignore that little part in the middle–the part between Trayvon being black and Trayvon getting killed. You know, that little part where Trayvon physically assaulted Zimmerman in a manner that the jury believed made Zimmerman reasonably fear for his life. Just about every one of you pro-Trayvon people do this, and it’s completely ludicrous, especially when people compare Trayvon to Emmett Till or Medger Evers (neither of which did anything close to that little part in the middle). Five minutes. The middle, between Zimmerman being in his truck on the phone, and Martin being shot nowhere near a street, was about five minutes. He needed a really good story. Opinions differ widely on how good it was. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/854 "2013-07-21T00:04:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It doesn’t look like any criminal was caught directly as a result of the calls. Maybe they weren’t criminals in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/855 "2013-07-21T00:19:35Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Maybe they weren’t criminals in the first place. No, they were definitely black. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/856 "2013-07-21T00:33:44Z")
You owe me a new keyboard. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/857 "2013-07-21T00:44:32Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Maybe they weren’t criminals in the first place. That would be one very good reason none were caught. > [@elucidator](#): > > A conjecture: > > GZ, neighborhood guardian and wannabe cop, called the cops several times for situations that he believed, for whatever reason, involved potential crime. He did not intervene further, we may assume. And nothing of any significance happened. > > “Fucking punks, these assholes always get away!” > > So this time, he went the extra step. Armed himself and took direct action. That one didn’t get away. Did he even get to eat his Skittles? Do you have any reason to believe Zimmerman wasn’t armed when he made the other calls? He claimed he habitually went armed, and I see no reason to doubt that. Your conjecture, whilst not necessarily implausible, isn’t actually supported by any evidence. If this case were still at the investigation stage, it would be worth considering. Now we have evidence that he stopped following Martin, and that he waited until he’d been beaten for quite some time before shooting, it just looks stupid. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/858 "2013-07-21T01:09:51Z")
You offer points of contention as established fact. You say “we have evidence that he stopped following Martin”. This is after, of course, he continued to follow after being advised not to. When, exactly, did he stop? Did he say why? And this being beaten “for quite some time” implies a quantity. Did you read friend \*\*Kumquat’\*\*s timeline at post# 537? Martins phone records? Leaving at most a minute for all of this to have happened? At _most_, mind you! Time enough, to you think, to bust Z’s nose, throw him to the ground and beat his head into the sidewalk 20 times? If you insist. However, I always appreciate an honest critique of my arguments and style, and I accept them on Monday mornings between the hours of 7am and bite me. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/859 "2013-07-21T01:17:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You offer points of contention as established fact. You say “we have evidence that he stopped following Martin”. This is after, of course, he continued to follow after being advised not to. When, exactly, did he stop? Did he say why? No, he stopped when he was advised to. He may have attempted to find Martin again after the phone call ended, but that’s unknown. > [@](#): > > And this being beaten “for quite some time” implies a quantity. > > Did you read friend \*\*Kumquat’\*\*s timeline at post# 537? Martins phone records? Leaving at most a minute for all of this to have happened? At _most_, mind you! Time enough, to you think, to bust Z’s nose, throw him to the ground and beat his head into the sidewalk 20 times? If you insist. I don’t think anyone believes his head was bashed against the ground 20 times. 3-4 is what the experts at the trial suggested was reasonable, fits with the timeframe, and would be sufficient to put him in the necessary state of fear. I assume you’ve read the cites in the other threads that explain how unreliable memory of traumatic events is? Being wrong about the number of bashes, even by that amount, isn’t implausible. Being beaten for a minute would be enough to terrify most people. > [@](#): > > However, I always appreciate an honest critique of my arguments and style, and I accept them on Monday mornings between the hours of 7am and bite me. I’ve seen little evidence to date that you understand the concept of honesty, preferring snark, point scoring, and gratuitous ad hominems. You do so with some style, though, I’ll give you that. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/860 "2013-07-21T01:33:01Z")
> [@Tee](#): > > Five minutes. The middle, between Zimmerman being in his truck on the phone, and Martin being shot nowhere near a street, was about five minutes. He needed a really good story. Opinions differ widely on how good it was. 😕 What? The middle is the part between being black and getting shot. The middle is Trayvon Martin beating the shit out of George Zimmerman and making him reasonably fear for his life or serious bodily injury. The middle wasn’t present in the Emmett Till and Medger Evers cases, but was here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=44)