# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/961 "2013-07-23T16:41:09Z")
Bravo, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/962 "2013-07-23T17:48:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The moral is visible most clearly if we accept that GZ was an ordinary American, like you or me. An ordinary man who, victimized by our racial prejudices, inchoate anger, and crazy gun culture, ended up killing a teenager who was just out to buy Skittles. I’ve never hunted anyone while armed with a gun. I don’t even _own_ a gun. There’s exactly zero chance I’d ever end up doing what Zimmerman did. So no; I am not him. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/963 "2013-07-23T18:05:37Z")
And then there’s the blood on Martins hands. More directly, the absence thereof. We are given to believe that Martin broke Zimmerman’s nose, and then covered both nose and mouth with his hands, in an apparent effort to smother him. Yet, no blood on the hands. Well, maybe his broken nose didn’t bleed? I call on that paragon of trustworthy reportage, _The Blaze_… > [@](#): > > …Still, the pictures and the evidence show the neighborhood watch volunteer \*with a bloody nose \*on the night of the fight. And a paramedic report says Zimmerman had a 1-inch laceration on his head and forehead abrasion. > > “Bleeding tenderness to his nose, and a small laceration to the back of his head. All injuries have minor bleeding,” paramedic Michael Brandy wrote about Zimmerman’s injuries in the report… (Emphasis added) So, a bloody nose. A hand pressed against that bloody nose is immaculate, according to the medical examiner. > [@](#): > > …Bao performed Martin’s autopsy and said Martin’s pants were wet on the front and there was no blood on his hands… [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/prosecutors-wrapping-case-zimmerman-trial/nYdqJ/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/prosecutors-wrapping-case-zimmerman-trial/nYdqJ/) How very odd. Of course, he might very well have washed his hands with exceeding care. Had he been alive. So, somebody’s testimony here is likely false. Martin has no testimony to offer, being dead. Who does that leave? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/964 "2013-07-23T18:07:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you think he lied about things, show the evidence that supports that claim. Simply saying that he may have lied about things, and he had a motive to do so, is not enough. OK. Your turn. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/965 "2013-07-23T18:12:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > And then there’s the blood on Martins hands. More directly, the absence thereof. We are given to believe that Martin broke Zimmerman’s nose, and then covered both nose and mouth with his hands, in an apparent effort to smother him. Yet, no blood on the hands. > > Well, maybe his broken nose didn’t bleed? I call on that paragon of trustworthy reportage, _The Blaze_… > (Emphasis added) > > So, a bloody nose. A hand pressed against that bloody nose is immaculate, according to the medical examiner. > [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/prosecutors-wrapping-case-zimmerman-trial/nYdqJ/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/prosecutors-wrapping-case-zimmerman-trial/nYdqJ/) > > How very odd. Of course, he might very well have washed his hands with exceeding care. Had he been alive. > > So, somebody’s testimony here is likely false. Martin has no testimony to offer, being dead. Who does that leave? 1. When you’re on your back, the broken nose bleeds internally. When you get up, it starts bleeding outside. 2. Martin’s body was left outside, under the rain, for a period of time, after the revival efforts. If there was blood, it could have washed off. The ME examination was cursory/visual. He didn’t take DNA samples from the palms of the hands. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/966 "2013-07-23T18:19:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Zimmerman never said it at all. > > See how pervasive the lie is? > > Zimmerman never said that, period. Upon investigation, you have a point. The full quote: > [@](#): > > …Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about… Yes, that clears up a lot. Martin’s blackness was not the source of Z’s suspicions so much as his expert opinion that Martin was on drugs, based apparently on walking in the rain and his reckless eyeballing of private property. I had wondered why you didn’t offer the countervailing quote to support your rather bald assertion. We may, if you like, stipulate that this entirely unjustifiable suspicion was not based on race, and I suppose that is something of an improvement. Not much, but some. Congratulations of your, ah, triumph. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/967 "2013-07-23T18:26:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > 1. When you’re on your back, the broken nose bleeds internally. When you get up, it starts bleeding outside. > 2. Martin’s body was left outside, under the rain, for a period of time, after the revival efforts. If there was blood, it could have washed off. The ME examination was cursory/visual. He didn’t take DNA samples from the palms of the hands. Are you serious? Martins hands pressed to the broken nose, and all the bleeding was internal? You have, of course, solid evidence to back up this contention? And blood washed off by the rain? Must have been raining like a sumbitch! > **[U.S. News: Latest Breaking Stories, Video, and Photos on American Politics,...](https://www.nbcnews.com/us-news?lite)** > > Get the latest news headlines and top stories from NBCNews.com. Find videos and news articles on the latest stories in the US. > [@](#): > > …Martin’s body was on the grass, face-down with his hands under him, Raimondo said… That is some _serious_ rain! Went right through this body and flushed away all the blood you say wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/968 "2013-07-23T18:39:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Yes, that clears up a lot. Martin’s blackness was not the source of Z’s suspicions so much as his expert opinion that Martin was on drugs, based apparently on walking in the rain and his reckless eyeballing of private property. > > I had wondered why you didn’t offer the countervailing quote to support your rather bald assertion. We may, if you like, stipulate that this entirely unjustifiable suspicion was not based on race, and I suppose that is something of an improvement. > > Not much, but some. Congratulations of your, ah, triumph. You are one of the few people who can post a statement admitting you were wrong and make it sound like you were right, and add a sneer to the whole thing. But in this case, the major gripe about Zimmerman was not that he was a poor excuse for a detective, but that he was a racist. Accord: > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Sorry, but when you suspect that Trayvon Martin is a prowler because he’s black then you are a racist. I point out Zimmerman didn’t say that he suspected Martin because Martin was black. > [@elucidator](#): > > What is your point, was it lost in translation? Z didn’t say it to Serino, but to the dispatcher, and this changes what, exactly? > > And because Serino was a witness for the prosecution, you say “He was a police officer trying to convict Zimmerman”? > [@Bricker](#): > > Zimmerman never said it at all. > > See how pervasive the lie is? > > Zimmerman never said that, period. NBC is to blame. Their broadcast of the police call has Zimmerman saying: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.” This became the accepted narrative at the beginning of the case. Later, NBC issued a quiet correction, admitting that they had edited the actual call: Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about. Dispatcher: OK, and this guy - is he black, white or Hispanic? Zimmerman: He looks black. Instant racist. NBC never even apologized to Zimmerman. But, hey. Who watches NBC anyway, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/969 "2013-07-23T18:40:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Are you serious? Martins hands pressed to the broken nose, and all the bleeding was internal? You have, of course, solid evidence to back up this contention? 1. When your nose is broken, the bleeding is internal - do you agree? 2. When you’re on your back, internal bleeding in your nose doesn’t show up on the outside - that’s just laws of physics. So what is your problem with it? > [@](#): > > And blood washed off by the rain? Must have been raining like a sumbitch! I believe the expression by one of the witnesses was “it was raining buckets”. > [@](#): > > Martin’s body was on the grass, face-down with his hands under him, Raimondo said… That was immediately before he turned the body face up in order to do the life-saving procedures on him. Are you this dumb, really, or just pretending to be? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/970 "2013-07-23T18:49:10Z")
Well, OK. So, either the blood was never there, or it was washed off in the rain, those being the only plausible explanations. Which you know because you are so much smarter than I. You never quite got around to proving your assertion about immaculate internal bleeding. Any time you like. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/971 "2013-07-23T18:51:39Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, OK. So, either the blood was never there, or it was washed off in the rain, those being the only plausible explanations. Not “the only”. But plausible. > [@](#): > > You never quite got around to proving your assertion about immaculate internal bleeding. Any time you like. > **[The Claim: Tilt Your Head Back to Treat a Nosebleed (Published 2008)](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/health/29real.html)** > > Medical experts say that what most people know about nosebleeds is wrong. Tilting the head back, a technique widely considered proper first aid, can create complications by allowing blood into the esophagus. Hint: your esophagus is not on the outside. Also, may explain Zimmerman’s choking sensations. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/972 "2013-07-23T18:52:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You are one of the few people who can post a statement admitting you were wrong and make it sound like you were right, and add a sneer to the whole thing. > > But in this case, the major gripe about Zimmerman was not that he was a poor excuse for a detective, but that he was a racist. Accord: > > I point out Zimmerman didn’t say that he suspected Martin because Martin was black. > > NBC is to blame. Their broadcast of the police call has Zimmerman saying: > > “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.” > > This became the accepted narrative at the beginning of the case. Later, NBC issued a quiet correction, admitting that they had edited the actual call: > > Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about. > > Dispatcher: OK, and this guy - is he black, white or Hispanic? > > Zimmerman: He looks black. > > Instant racist. > > NBC never even apologized to Zimmerman. > > But, hey. Who watches NBC anyway, right? If someone unfairly accused Z of racism, that is a darned shame. And such quotes should never be altered. In a thread about media dishonesty, that would certainly be directly relevant. If it were. But it isn’t. Unless you would like to change the subject, or at least the focus? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/973 "2013-07-23T19:00:23Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not “the only”. But plausible. > [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9907E2D7123BF93AA15757C0A96E9C8B63](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9907E2D7123BF93AA15757C0A96E9C8B63) > Tilting the head back, a technique widely considered proper first aid, can create complications by allowing blood into the esophagus. > Hint: your esophagus is not on the outside. Also, may explain Zimmerman’s choking sensations. Hell, I thought an esophagus was a dinosaur! But I’m just a dumb ol’ country boy. But “allowing blood into the esophagus” is a bit short of saying that all the blood went inward, now isn’t it? And, yes, it might explain his choking sensations. Except for the direct quote, above. From the transcript lined in post #580 . > [@](#): > > ..… And then he covered my nose with one hand and my mouth with the other one. And he told me shut the f— up. And I couldn’t breathe. I was suffocating… So, he’s pressing his hand forcefully on the broken nose, forcefully enough to cut off breathing, but gets no blood on his hand? Or if he did, the rain washed it off. Assumng, of course, that his hands were open and flat. Not clenched. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/974 "2013-07-23T19:03:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, he’s pressing his hand forcefully on the broken nose, forcefully enough to cut off breathing, but gets no blood on his hand? If the bleeding is internal, and Zimmerman is on his back - exactly how does the blood get outside the nose? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/975 "2013-07-23T19:11:41Z")
Excuse me, but you have yet to prove the premise you are relying upon. You offer evidence that _some_ blood can go down the esophagus, but that’s about all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/976 "2013-07-23T19:12:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hell, I thought an esophagus was a dinosaur! But I’m just a dumb ol’ country boy. > > But “allowing blood into the esophagus” is a bit short of saying that all the blood went inward, now isn’t it? And, yes, it might explain his choking sensations. Except for the direct quote, above. > > From the transcript lined in post #580 > > . > > So, he’s pressing his hand forcefully on the broken nose, forcefully enough to cut off breathing, but gets no blood on his hand? Or if he did, the rain washed it off. Assumng, of course, that his hands were open and flat. Not clenched. If blood from his nose were draining backwards, he may have felt like he couldn’t breathe even though the hands were nowhere near forceful enough to cut off breathing. We even have a name for that, when it’s done in the name of interrogation with water instead of blood. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/977 "2013-07-23T19:16:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Excuse me, but you have yet to prove the premise you are relying upon. You offer evidence that _some_ blood can go down the esophagus, but that’s about all. It’s called law of gravity. Obey it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/978 "2013-07-23T19:18:21Z")
He was _already_ lying on his back when Martin broke his nose? Don’t think that’s the way he tells it. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/979 "2013-07-23T19:20:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If blood from his nose were draining backwards, he may have felt like he couldn’t breathe even though the hands were nowhere near forceful enough to cut off breathing. We even have a name for that, when it’s done in the name of interrogation with water instead of blood. Ah! So, with the one hand on his mouth, he is pressing forcefully, but that hand on the nose is merely draped across it! ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/980 "2013-07-23T19:21:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > I say “No,” flatly, because in my view, no jury would acquit Martin of battery if the encounter ended there. The mere fact that someone is reaching into a pocket is not a threatening act, as a matter of law, unless it’s combined with some other threat, such as, “I’m going to blow your heard off,” or “I have a gun.” Did a jury consider Zimmerman’s story back when he assaulted that police officer? Seriously, if the police had arrived immediately following the first punch, all preceding circumstances being the same, IMO there would have been very little chance of it ever reaching a jury. And if it had progressed to the point where Zimmerman was killed… well, we know how easy it is to put the right words in a dead man’s mouth. There’s a big difference between the omniscient view of a hypothetical, and what a jury ends up hearing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=50)