# Pitting the Zimmerman trial circus **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419 "2013-07-13T19:53:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 50
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/981 "2013-07-23T19:22:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > He was _already_ lying on his back when Martin broke his nose? Don’t think that’s the way he tells it. Cite? He said Martin hit him. Then he fell. In that second between the two events, the blood had no time to show up. And when he is down, blood has no way to flow upwards. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/982 "2013-07-23T19:23:26Z")
Except that blood is under pressure. You may have heard, its called “blood pressure”. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/983 "2013-07-23T19:24:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So why aren’t we all punching ourselves in the face? > > Regards, > Shodan For the same reason we aren’t shooting ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/984 "2013-07-23T19:25:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Except that blood is under pressure. You may have heard, its called “blood pressure”. Yep. Pressure in which direction? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/985 "2013-07-23T19:32:03Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Did a jury consider Zimmerman’s story back when he assaulted that police officer? > > Seriously, if the police had arrived immediately following the first punch, all preceding circumstances being the same, IMO there would have been very little chance of it ever reaching a jury. Why is that? What would have happened? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/986 "2013-07-23T19:33:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ah! So, with the one hand on his mouth, he is pressing forcefully, but that hand on the nose is merely draped across it! Fallacy of the excluded middle. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/987 "2013-07-23T19:38:17Z")
In whichever direction offers the least resistance. But not _exclusively_ in that direction. Your conjecture depends on some bodily function such that a broken nose bleeds exclusively in the inward direction, _immediately_. All you’ve offered in support of that extraordinary thesis is evidence that some blood may flow towards the esophagus influenced by gravity. Sure. But iF Z was standing when struck, then the blood spurts, under pressure, and gravity will pull it downwards, until such time as he is lying on his back. Unless you want to say he was hit while lying on his back, which you would have to cite. Of course, the nose could be broken, the blood spurting, but biding its time until he is fully supine. Is that it? (You sure that isn’t a dinosaur?) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/988 "2013-07-23T19:44:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fallacy of the excluded middle. So, _both_ hands were merely draped across his mouth and nose? Seriously? The other form of excluded middle would require that _both_ hands were forcefully applied, which I don’t think you’re aiming for. Drivel, unless Z is lying about it. What, Martin just laid his hands there for no particular reason? Just resting there between multiple head thumpings? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/989 "2013-07-23T19:44:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is that? What would have happened? What happened in Zimmerman’s case? Say you’re representing Martin. Is the best you can do for him the scenario you described in your “flat no” answer? Really? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/990 "2013-07-23T19:46:31Z")
You know, you really should have that nagging cough looked at. It interferes with your singing. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/991 "2013-07-23T19:56:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > In whichever direction offers the least resistance. But not _exclusively_ in that direction. > > Your conjecture depends on some bodily function such that a broken nose bleeds exclusively in the inward direction, _immediately_. No. Blood from broken nose does not shoot out. It drips. Drips as in “flows under gravity”. Gravity, when you’re on your back, does not cause the blood to drip from the nose. > [@](#): > > But iF Z was standing when struck, then the blood spurts, under pressure, and gravity will pull it downwards Seriously? “Spurts”? Cite for blood ever “spurting” due to a broken nose? Or was Zimmerman the first such case? ---
**Author:** ![Passion\_of\_the\_Shrubber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@Passion\_of\_the\_Shrubber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Passion_of_the_Shrubber)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/992 "2013-07-23T20:01:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > I say “No,” flatly, because in my view, no jury would acquit Martin of battery if the encounter ended there. The mere fact that someone is reaching into a pocket is not a threatening act, as a matter of law, unless it’s combined with some other threat, such as, “I’m going to blow your heard off,” or “I have a gun.” Thank you for your opinion, much appreciated! I was thinking about the Dunn case and how he may possibly get off with the murder of Jordan Davis simply because he perceived Davis had a gun when he didn’t. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Terr** 2. Martin’s body was left outside, under the rain, for a period of time, after the revival efforts. If there was blood, it could have washed off. The ME examination was cursory/visual. He didn’t take DNA samples from the palms of the hands. I doubt that the rain could’ve washed away any DNA from under Trayvon’s fingernails, though. Why was nothing found there if there was such a great struggle and Trayvon was smothering Zimmerman’s bloody face with his hands? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/993 "2013-07-23T20:03:35Z")
> [@Passion\_of\_the\_Shrubber](#): > > I doubt that the rain could’ve washed away any DNA from under Trayvon’s fingernails, though. We were not discussing fingernails. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/994 "2013-07-23T20:03:53Z")
Well, tell you what, hoss. Why don’t you experiment, perhaps walk along the street and randomly break noses of passersby, see how often your fist comes away spotless. I might do it, but first, I’m groovy, and second, you wouldn’t believe me anyway. Rational argument bounces of your closed mind like popcorn off a rhino. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/995 "2013-07-23T20:05:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, tell you what, hoss. Why don’t you experiment, perhaps walk along the street and randomly break noses of passersby, see how often your fist comes away spotless. Pathetic. This is from Mayo clinic - you know, the famous pro-Zimmerman web site. Signs and symptoms of a broken nose may appear immediately or may take up to three days to develop. Signs and symptoms may include: Pain or tenderness, especially when touching your nose Swelling of your nose and surrounding areas Bleeding from your nose Bruising around your nose or eyes Crooked or misshapen nose Difficulty breathing through your nose Discharge of mucus from your nose (rhinorrhea) Feeling that one or both of your nasal passages are blocked ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/996 "2013-07-23T20:21:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > …you know, the famous pro-Zimmerman web site… Why did you even bother to type that? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/997 "2013-07-23T23:24:39Z")
I’ve been hit in the nose before, being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nothing happens for a minute, then it flows. You want to put your head back but you also want to breathe; it is the most disgusting, godawful, spitting, sputtering state to be in. My nose wasn’t broken and it still looked like I slaughtered a cow. That’s me, I realize that injuries can produce different outcomes, and you have my blessing to be amused by my suffering because it was a long time ago and it happened twice. Then I stopped working there. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/998 "2013-07-24T15:39:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, OK. So, either the blood was never there, or it was washed off in the rain, those being the only plausible explanations. Which you know because you are so much smarter than I… Sgt. Anthony E. Raimondo noted Trayvon Martin was found face down and was flipped over so he could attempt CPR. [Cite](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/trayvon-martin-crime-scene-photos_n_3497991.html) Raimondo estimated that he covered Trayvon Martin’s body after about 15 minutes. [Cite](http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/322277/250/Zimmerman-jury-sees-Trayvon-Martins-body) The state’s witness Dr Bao testified that Trayvon Martin’s hands were not bagged as they should have been. [Cite](http://www.clickorlando.com/news/medical-examiner-says-trayvon-martin-suffered-after-being-shot-by-george-zimmerman/-/1637132/20851274/-/156rxi6z/-/index.html) The state botched the job in preserving evidence. Martin’s hands were left exposed to the rain for about 15 minutes. And as a result evidence may have been lost. Certainly the state cannot point to a failure to find evidence on Martin’s hands as having any probative value. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/999 "2013-07-24T17:20:32Z")
Possible, but not likely. Blood clots, it thickens quickly from an entirely liquid state to a semi-solid, if you remember the last time you tried to wash blood from a minor cut. I suggest that reaching for the possible to overwhelm the probable is something of a stretch, but of course you are welcome to believe it as you choose. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419/1000 "2013-07-24T17:48:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Possible, but not likely. Blood clots, it thickens quickly from an entirely liquid state to a semi-solid, if you remember the last time you tried to wash blood from a minor cut. I suggest that reaching for the possible to overwhelm the probable is something of a stretch, but of course you are welcome to believe it as you choose. Break your nose and lay down on your back. Tell me where the blood goes. I’m only slightly surprised there wasn’t any blood on Martin’s hands, but don’t find it completely impossible given the circumstances. I am quite shocked there wasn’t any of Zimmerman’s blood on the BACK of Martin’s hoody given Zimmerman’s description of subduing / searching the body. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=49) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-the-zimmerman-trial-circus/663419.md?page=51)