# Pitting those who oppose citizen border patrols! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 8, 2005, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458 "2005-04-08T04:42:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/21 "2005-04-08T16:07:58Z")
From the WA State Department of Licensing : [Motor Voter rules](http://www.dol.wa.gov/ds/motrvotr.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/22 "2005-04-08T16:08:28Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > That being said, my prior post was very careful in not stating things as fact that I was not 100% sure of and so I am left wondering just what contribution it is that you think you were making with your post, and more specifically what your general problem is. Oh settle down. You were making broad claims as fact (“here is a little information”), and backing them up with a wild guess (“as far as I know”). Your follow-up clarified quite a bit, but as you say, nothing’s concrete. It would be interesting to see if there’s any official word out of your DOL to see if there’s an official policy (outside of the act setting up the motor voter situation) on requiring proof of citizenship, or whether you hit a shady branch. Because currently, the DOL has the following posted [on their website](http://www.dol.wa.gov/ds/motrvotr.htm): > [@](#): > > You may register to vote at all Licensing Services Offices (LSO) if you meet the following qualifications. > > You must: > > be a citizen of the U.S.; > be a resident of the state of Washington; > be at least 18 years of age at time of voting; and > retain your civil rights. [ul] [/ul] ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/23 "2005-04-08T16:18:56Z")
[Here is an interesting article (admitedly from the Rebulicans, whe are wanting to clean up uor system right now)](http://www1.leg.wa.gov/Senate/SRC/MediaCenter/CarrellGovElection011905.htm). This is the quite that I found most interesiting and am poking around to verify. > [@](#): > > In 1993, the National Voter Registration Act, more commonly known as “Motor Voter,” required states to offer voter registration at drivers’ licensing and other government offices. Washington passed its Motor Voter law in 1990. The legislation was aimed at increasing voter turnout, but had some unintended consequences. **Clerks at the Department of Licensing and other Washington state agencies where Motor Voter registration is available are not only prohibited from asking registrants for proof of citizenship, they aren’t even allowed to ask if registrants are citizens. Today, because of how Motor Voter was written and implemented in Washington, there likely are aliens who vote.** ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/24 "2005-04-08T16:19:24Z")
First, I’d like to congratulate **Thank Ye Sai** on managing to fill such a short post with so much short sightedness and just plain ignorance. Leaving aside issues of whether illegal immigration for know, the thought of a bunch of untrained and armed volunteers guarding the borders doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence. According to this [article](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3119925), volunteers have been tripping alarms which has caused the Border Patrol to have to spend investigating false alarms. Also what happens when one of these guys sees something moving, panics and takes a shot? Remember, these guys aren’t trained like a police officer would be so likely their first impulse maybe to shoot first. Does your neighborhood watch carry firearms? Cause I’ve met my neighbors and I wouldn’t trust them with a pointy stick must less a loaded gun. Now, your next point was that the Dems want to give the illegals the vote. I don’t suppose you have a cite for that? According to [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html), 44% of Hispanics voted for Bush, hardly the stuff that would make the Dems salivate over an influx of Hispanics. Not to mention that Hispanics tend to be fairly culturally conservative. The Cuban population in Florida is known to trend Republican and has done so for quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/25 "2005-04-08T16:21:08Z")
Be honest. Have you ever seen more tyops in a post? ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/26 "2005-04-08T16:23:15Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Be honest. Have you ever seen more tyops in a post? I was. talking about my post, naturally ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/27 "2005-04-08T16:25:15Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > [Here is an interesting article (admitedly from the Rebulicans, whe are wanting to clean up uor system right now)](http://www1.leg.wa.gov/Senate/SRC/MediaCenter/CarrellGovElection011905.htm). This is the quite that I found most interesiting and am poking around to verify. It looks like Henry Hyde introduced amendment HR 4530 to close this [loophole:](http://www.usbc.org/info/2004/jul/hyde.htm) > [@](#): > > Congressman Henry Hyde of Illinois is seeking to amend the Motor Voter law to help curb voting by illegal aliens. The amendment would require voters to provide photo identification when voting in federal elections. > > H.R. 4530, would specifically amend the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 (the “Motor Voter law”) to require proof of citizenship to register or re-register to vote in an election for federal office. Acceptable forms of identification include a U.S. birth certificate, a naturalization card, or a U.S. passport. Supporters of the amendment are hoping it will pass so it will become law before the November elections. > > Hyde said the issue is about ensuring that the only people voting in federal elections are legal citizens of the United States. “The U.S. Constitution clearly states that only U.S. citizens may vote in federal elections,” the Congressman commented at a press conference. “My bill would amend the 1993 Motor Voter bill to require states to demand proof of citizenship when a person applies for voter registration, even if they have previously been on the voter rolls at another location, with no exceptions. My bill also require that photo ID’s be presented when registering to vote or when voting at the polls.” > > Proponents of the Hyde bill say the Moter Voter law has made it too easy for non-citizens to be registered to vote illegally. Some states with large populations of illegal aliens, such as Illinois and California, are actually registering them to vote because they are not required to show proof of citizenship. Here’s a link to the bill proposition too.]([http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.4530:](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.4530:)) ---
**Author:** ![Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cab0a1/32.png) [@Man\_With\_a\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Man_With_a_Cat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/28 "2005-04-08T16:25:49Z")
Noe, eye have nevurr, evurr seene more misplings in wun singul post. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/29 "2005-04-08T16:46:46Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Hehe, the past… I was just hedging my bets, covering my ass, and using “weasel words” to avoid making accusations about things that may or may not be (weasel words again) still happening. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/30 "2005-04-08T22:21:38Z")
I had a feeling Thank Ye Whatever would be banned poste haste… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/31 "2005-04-08T22:46:13Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I was just hedging my bets, covering my ass, and using “weasel words” to avoid making accusations about things that may or may not be (weasel words again) still happening. I think the joke was that “in the past” people who are now dead used to do a lot of things. Like breathe. Which they don’t do now. Because they are dead. But they used to. When they were alive. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2005, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/32 "2005-04-08T23:47:57Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > First, the OP is a tool. I want to be clear on that (and I think that we can all agree). However, here is a little information that you may find interesting. Here is Washington State, we have the so called “motor voter” law (or program, I am not sure which). The basic deal is that you can register to vote when you are getting your drivers license. As far as I know, you are not required to prove that you are a citizen when getting your license and when registering the folks at the DOL are either prohibited from asking, or just don’t. So, at least in my fair state illegals can, and do vote. Texas, too. Motor Voter is just plain fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Maendosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/33 "2005-04-09T00:37:26Z")
Just wanted to say thanks for not deleting the whole thread 🙂 It was irritating, as was outlined in the Pit thread about deleting threads. I appreciate the change in policy, if this represents one. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/34 "2005-04-09T02:05:12Z")
So, has anyone found any cites about motor-voter laws that counter my understanding of them? So far I have found a lot of articles and columns that were the result of the recent WA state election that are claiming that the DOL folks are required to ask if the person wants to register to vote and that they are forbidden to ask if they are citizens. I have not had any luck in finding the text of the law itself that backs this up. It is not that I necessarily disbelieve what I have found, but all of it seems to be coming from the Republican side of the aisle (not surprising, as they were the party screwed in this election under pretty shady looking circumstances) and I would love to know if my understanding is right or wrong. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/35 "2005-04-09T02:29:33Z")
> [@Maendosa](#): > > Just wanted to say thanks for not deleting the whole thread 🙂 It was irritating, as was outlined in the Pit thread about deleting threads. I appreciate the change in policy, if this represents one. Don’t take it as a change in policy just yet. I did this on my own. Case by case basis. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/36 "2005-04-09T03:38:25Z")
Note: in many states, in order to register to vote, you don’t have to _prove_ that you’re a U.S. citizen - you just have to attest to it. Link: [http://www.eac.gov/docs/nvra.pdf](http://www.eac.gov/docs/nvra.pdf) To make a long story somewhat shorter, it’s possible that my grandmother has been voting this way since the 1930s, and after much research, I have not been able to document whether she is a U.S. citizen (though she honestly thought she was, she has no memory of naturalizing, and didn’t move to the U.S. until she was 16). I’m sure she’s not the only one. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/37 "2005-04-09T04:32:06Z")
Here in Talibama one must attest to citizenship. I cannot do so (nor will I ever do so, I am not going past residency as I do not wish to be a US citizen). One must also prove likewise for a driver’s license. I expect sometime in the future that in this state at least, one will have to prove SBC affiliation. ---
**Author:** ![UnwrittenNocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/6de8d8/32.png) [@UnwrittenNocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UnwrittenNocturne)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/38 "2005-04-09T04:34:54Z")
Further to that I am surprised at the citizenship requirement. In New Zealand and Australia one need only be a resident (after all, if you live there the policies have an impact on you). I am able to vote in New Zealand (where I am a citizen) and Australia (where I am a officially a permanent resident). ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/39 "2005-04-09T05:41:19Z")
> [@UnwrittenNocturne](#): > > Further to that I am surprised at the citizenship requirement. In New Zealand and Australia one need only be a resident (after all, if you live there the policies have an impact on you). I am able to vote in New Zealand (where I am a citizen) and Australia (where I am a officially a permanent resident). Are you sure that your permanent residency gives you the right to vote here in Australia \*\*UnwrittenNocturne \*\* ? Have you actually voted in any elections since you moved here? The [Australian Electoral Commission](http://www.aec.gov.au/_content/what/enrolment/general.htm) website states clearly that eligibility to vote is restricted to those aged 18 or over who are: - Australian citizens; or - British subjects who were on a Commonwealth electoral roll on 25 January 1984. There’s no mention of voting eligibility for permanent residents who are New Zealand citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2005, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458/40 "2005-04-09T06:37:24Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > Are you sure that your permanent residency gives you the right to vote here in Australia \*\*UnwrittenNocturne \*\* ? Have you actually voted in any elections since you moved here? The [Australian Electoral Commission](http://www.aec.gov.au/_content/what/enrolment/general.htm) website states clearly that eligibility to vote is restricted to those aged 18 or over who are: > > - Australian citizens; or > - British subjects who were on a Commonwealth electoral roll on 25 January 1984. > > There’s no mention of voting eligibility for permanent residents who are New Zealand citizens. He’s not living in Australia now, he’s living in the US with me. 🙂 But I can answer this one: Yes, he voted in elections in Australia while he was living there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-those-who-oppose-citizen-border-patrols/298458.md?page=1)