# Pitting UltraVires **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734 "2018-09-22T16:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/521 "2022-02-15T03:39:17Z")
For someone who was just mortified at the thought of confining a white male murderer pretrial just because he engaged in the perfectly legal activity of disappearing off the face of the Earth prior to criminal charges everyone _knew_ were coming, UV is currently having one hell of a time grasping the idea that in states where weed is legal (and keeping in mind it can produce an odor even when in its unopened packaging, as several posters have pointed out to him) that the mere smell of weed alone may not amount to probable cause for an arrest for DUI, or even a search for weed. ETA: starts around here for the curious but disengaged: `https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-interrogations/959024/154` ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/522 "2022-02-15T12:11:23Z")
This guy is walking “ineffective assistance of counsel”. I’m wondering how this idiot graduated Kindergarten, never mind completed law school and passed the bar exam. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/523 "2022-02-15T12:34:01Z")
:Church Lady voice: Well, isn’t he [special.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_counsel) :CLv: ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/524 "2022-02-15T14:19:34Z")
Don’t forget, he insists it’s entirely appropriate for a Judge to take away an American’s rights as a long as it’s only one day and you get paid for it. He misses the point that even the idea of taking away someone’s rights _at all_ so two companies can “talk it out” is a bad precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Latimera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/latimera/32/497_2.png) [@Latimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latimera)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/525 "2022-02-15T16:59:49Z")
Is there any actual evidence that he is a lawyer beyond his say-so? Or any indication of what kind of law he practices? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/526 "2022-02-15T17:13:08Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > He misses the point that even the idea of taking away someone’s rights _at all_ so two companies can “talk it out” is a bad precedent. - It wouldn’t surprise me if he considers it a _good_ precedent. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/527 "2022-02-15T17:21:09Z")
> [@Latimera](#): > > Is there any actual evidence that he is a lawyer beyond his say-so? Or any indication of what kind of law he practices? Yes. He has doxxed himself on this site. ---
**Author:** ![Latimera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/latimera/32/497_2.png) [@Latimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latimera)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/528 "2022-02-15T17:43:28Z")
Interesting. Thanks for that. I just assumed he wasn’t, based on the quality of his posting. Has he indicated what kind of law he practices? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/529 "2022-02-15T17:47:53Z")
I suspect it involves ambulances and running after them. Think Denzel in _Philadelphia_. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/530 "2022-02-15T18:58:25Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Don’t forget, he insists it’s entirely appropriate for a Judge to take away an American’s rights as a long as it’s only one day and you get paid for it. He misses the point that even the idea of taking away someone’s rights _at all_ so two companies can “talk it out” is a bad precedent. The rare thread where **UltraVires** is actually a voice of reason. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/531 "2022-02-15T20:10:22Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > For someone who was just mortified at the thought of confining a white male murderer pretrial just because he engaged in the perfectly legal activity of disappearing off the face of the Earth prior to criminal charges everyone _knew_ were coming, UV is currently having one hell of a time grasping the idea that in states where weed is legal (and keeping in mind it can produce an odor even when in its unopened packaging, as several posters have pointed out to him) that the mere smell of weed alone may not amount to probable cause for an arrest for DUI, or even a search for weed. > > ETA: starts around here for the curious but disengaged: `https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-interrogations/959024/154` I’ll just say that I am confused by the logic and legal theory behind being on duty as a cop, in the middle of an investigation now making a citizens arrest on federal charges that are legal in my state, doing a citizens search of the vehicle for something legal in my state, then putting my cop hat on and arresting on state charges for something I found on my illegal search. I mean I guess I could do it. Once. Then I would be fired and arrested. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/532 "2022-02-15T21:17:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The rare thread where **UltraVires** is actually a voice of reason. Except he wasn’t. He was being his typical self, ignoring the arguments people were actually making. And he was called out by an actual lawyer for his bad legal reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2022, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/533 "2022-02-15T21:42:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > The rare thread where **UltraVires** is actually a voice of reason. If there’s one poster on this board who is somehow consistently dumber than @UltraVires it’s @Saint_Cad. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/534 "2022-02-16T00:04:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > He was being his typical self, ignoring the arguments people were actually making. That thread is full of people ignoring the arguments that others are making and impugning their motives with over-the-top rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/535 "2022-02-16T00:23:26Z")
At least I’m consistent ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/536 "2022-02-16T00:42:06Z")
OK, I chuckled. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/537 "2022-02-16T13:03:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And he was called out by an actual lawyer To be fair, there was a team of ‘actual lawyers’ making the initial foray into that legal nonsense and an ‘actual judge’ ruling to temporarily stay the hirings. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/538 "2022-02-16T17:11:51Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > UV is currently having one hell of a time grasping the idea that in states where weed is legal (and keeping in mind it can produce an odor even when in its unopened packaging, as several posters have pointed out to him) that the mere smell of weed alone may not amount to probable cause for an arrest for DUI, or even a search for weed. Don’t want to further derail the FQ topic which is supposed to be about police interrogations rather than what is or isn’t legal under federal law. So I’ll post here. > [@Police Interrogations](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-interrogations/959024/155): > > “marijuana is legal” in NJ even though federal law supersedes that. Federal law? Did you miss the memo? There is a [widely reported loophole](https://www.npr.org/2022/01/04/1070338052/a-loophole-in-federal-marijuana-law-has-led-to-the-creation-of-new-thc-product) in the federal Agricultural Improvement Act of 2018 which decriminalizes cannabis with low concentrations of Delta-9 THC. Normally such strains do not produce a high. The loophole is that cannabis plants also produce Delta-8 THC in very tiny amounts, so they will extract this Delta-8 THC from legal plants. This extract is used in edibles and tinctures, but it can also be rubbed all over the “flower” of a Delta-9 THC deficient plant. The resultant product is federally legal cannabinoid that [looks like weed, smells like weed, and tastes like weed](https://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/hemp-or-marijuana/). You can smoke it to get high, with the same paraphernalia such as rolling paper, though I’m told it’s more of a body high than head high. On the state level, in 2019 West Virginia classified cannabis products with less than 0.3% Delta-9 THC concentrations as hemp, a non-controlled substance, rather than marijuana. This is codified under [chapter 19, article 12E](https://code.wvlegislature.gov/19-12E/). And indeed you can buy this stuff in West Virignia. [Here](https://appalachianonline.com/premium-flower-hemp-delta-8/)’s a shop selling it in Morgantown. I don’t know about West Virginia, but in Florida this stuff is as ubiquitous as tobacco, with cannabinoid products in every gas station. I am actually surprised at your posts, since you are a defense lawyer I would expect you to have argued that because legal hemp is indistinguishable from marijuana, the smell test is no longer probable cause for illegal possession. On the other hand I agree with **UV** about smell being probable cause for a vehicular search for drug paraphernalia _on suspicion of DUID_. This seems to follow from _Arizona v Grant_, 556 U.S. 332 (2009), where the court ruled that police may conduct warrantless vehicular searches incident to a passenger’s arrest if they reasonably suspect the vehicle contains evidence of the offense. I think it’s reasonable to suspect a person who is driving erratically, whose car emits the odor of burning cannabis, of driving under the influence. Doesn’t matter whether it’s hemp or marijuana, DUID is DUID. And I think it’s reasonable to seize drug paraphernalia from the vehicle as evidence in support of that charge - for example ashes on the center console or carpeting, blunts or bongs that may have been stuffed in the glovebox or center compartment. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/539 "2022-02-16T17:34:39Z")
All in all, I thought that **UltraVires** had reasonable points in the Wisconsin hospital thread, especially contrasted with some of the histrionics. And then I see in the police interrogation thread that he seems to honestly believe that there’s a right to a [“citizen’s search”](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/police-interrogations/959024/211) when making a citizen’s arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/540 "2022-02-16T17:36:39Z")
Honestly believing something doesn’t make it true, or I would have gotten that pony for my birthday in grade school. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734.md?page=28)