# Pitting UltraVires **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734 "2018-09-22T16:05:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/581 "2022-02-21T19:02:15Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > arrested for a DUI This misses the point of citizen’s civil asset forfeiture. Sure if you’re _arrested_ your car can be impounded (even if it’s otherwise parked legally). Let’s say you’re not arrested. The car smells like marijuana, but there’s no evidence you’re under the influence, and the citizen’s search does not turn up any marijuana evidence, but because of the _smell_ the car must have been involved with breaking federal law, so the car is “arrested”. Because the car is not a person, it doesn’t have rights to a defense, so it could then be sold or used by the seizing individual. If you think any of that sounds ridiculous, do some reading on _real_ civil asset forfeiture as practiced by law enforcement agencies. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/582 "2022-02-21T19:10:35Z")
Sorry, I assumed your citizen’s civil asset forfeiture would follow the arrest. I think civil asset forfeiture has a more equitable future after one such case was reversed when SCOTUS ruled that the excessive fines clause applies to the states, just a couple years ago. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2022, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/583 "2022-02-21T21:16:27Z")
Can we do a citizen’s eminent domain? “I need your property for my own use, here is $5.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/584 "2022-02-22T00:13:12Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Can we do a citizen’s eminent domain? Aren’t some of those “sovereign citizens” loons pulling that stunt already? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/585 "2022-02-22T00:31:38Z")
You mean the ones that claim private property is illegal and so justify their squatting and calling that house their private property? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/586 "2022-02-22T00:39:21Z")
Yes. I’m also thinking of the ones like the Moorish Sovereign Citizen movement. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/587 "2022-02-22T03:40:47Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > I wonder if his work has hit a slow patch, with word finally starting to get around that he has an unusually high number of clients who were charged with jaywalking and, as a result of his efforts, ended up on death row. That tracks with the saying, “the death penalty isn’t for the worst criminals, but for the worst lawyers.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/588 "2022-02-22T05:07:52Z")
Yeah, and I’m thinking of those Moorish sovereign citizen loons, the ones who file all kinds of paperwork against your property and thus you can’t get credit, etc. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/589 "2022-02-22T17:04:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > “sovereign citizens” loon This, more than anything, is what comes to mind when I’m exposed to UV’s “legal theories”. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/590 "2022-02-22T17:12:42Z")
So, if there’s no fringe on their badge, the cops are not acting as public officials but as private citizens? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/591 "2022-02-22T17:22:03Z")
I wonder if that would work against Sov Cit bullshit. “You have no authority over me as an officer of the law!” “Yes, but right now, I am acting as a civilian.” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/592 "2022-02-22T18:19:42Z")
“Traveler” or “freeman of the land” across the pond. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/593 "2022-02-23T19:50:50Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I wonder if that would work against Sov Cit bullshit. > > “You have no authority over me as an officer of the law!” > > “Yes, but right now, I am acting as a civilian.” Knowing SovCits, claiming to just be acting as a an ordinary citizen might just get a police officer summarily executed. Because that’s what sovereign entities do when confronted by a peer: they wage war. And here, this guy or gal is saying they’re no longer operating under the protection of the United States Declaration of Independence, but are instead now a lone agent, operating to free hold principles of property curtailment without lien. If they aren’t prepared to defend themselves, that’s on them and provides an Absolute, Insolubale, and Irrevocable Eternal defense to murder. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/594 "2022-02-23T20:02:35Z")
How is that different from how they normally view agents of governments that they normally don’t recognize as having any authority? I’m asking sincerely. I don’t know much about them at all. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/595 "2022-02-23T20:06:36Z")
Well, you see (and keep in mind I’m making this up as I go along—like a sovereign citizen), an officer of the United States Law attempting to affect an arrest is in the wrong, but because they are mistaken. It’s an Unnatural Infringement that the SovCit has not consented to, and so has no actual force. On the other hand, an _ordinary_ citizen making to affect an arrest by forfeiture without lein actually _does_ have a right to act as such. But for that reason—because they _do_ represent to enforce Natural Law of God—they pose a real threat to the SovCit. Since there will be no court of appeal But God, they (the SovCit) must file immediately, by right of trial by Combat. Again, in contrast, with a mistaken United States Law Officer, there will be an attempt to create joinder in a court, which can be refused, thus negating the need for trial. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/596 "2022-02-24T00:28:43Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Again, in contrast, with a mistaken United States Law Officer, there will be an attempt to create joinder in a court, which can be refused, thus negating the need for trial. However, I _CAN_ create joinder with you if I have fringe on my badge. This has been specified in the _original_ US Constitution, which is held under lock and key in Ft. Bragg, and supercedes the fake other constitution. Therefore you can be arrested. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/597 "2022-02-24T03:56:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > However, I _CAN_ create joinder with you if I have fringe on my badge. That’s an urban legend. The fringe is merely decorative. What matters is shield or Star, and if Star how many points. Only a proprietarily-elected ninth amendment County Sheriff can exercise due joinder empowerment over a sovereign citizen, and even then only under limited circumstances. By Law of the Land of Commons and Commoners, said right and honorable true Shire-Reeves must be designated by a five-pointed star. Four points? Why that’s no star at all. Three? Only a triangle. And six points, Star or no, is right out. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/598 "2022-02-24T06:10:53Z")
I believe the Shire-Reeves may only display the five pointed star after you have given them the Sign of the Thumb. In this way, Joinder is achieved, unless the Supervisor of Reeves has turned his back on both of you. (This is reminding me of CalvinBall) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/599 "2022-02-24T08:08:57Z")
I’m thoroughly enjoying the fictional (as in written by my fellow SDMBers) sovcit “rationale”; however, while this is all in fun, the actual sovcit loons are, in fact, dangerous and some have killed, even committed mass murder. They may look laughable, but they are deadly dangerous. You can read more about them [at this SPLC site](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/sovereign-citizens-movement). Interesting to note is this tidbit: > The roots of the movement are racist and antisemitic. It was founded by William Potter Gale, former member of the John Birch Society. Potter formed a group of antigovernment Christian Identity adherents who mistrusted state and federal officials. They believed that non-white people were not human, and that Jews possessed a satanic plot to take over the world. They identified themselves as Posse Comitatus, which is Latin for “power of the county” and centered around the idea that county sheriffs are the highest governmental authority. > Posse Comitatus is based on the Sheriffs Act of 1887, which allowed sheriffs to form a posse that would assist them in hunting down and arresting criminals. Potter’s posse believed they served under common law (laws based on their interpretation of the Bible), rather than civil law (legitimate laws formed by the American legal system). ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734/600 "2022-02-24T14:36:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > (This is reminding me of CalvinBall) And just like CalvinBall, people will play by those made up rules. Don’t be too surprised in a few years to see your jokes here used “seriously” by a Sov Cit trying to talk his way into jail from a traffic ticket. > [@Monty](#): > > They may look laughable, but they are deadly dangerous. Most _are_ laughable. The dangerous ones would be dangerous regardless, and if it weren’t Sov Cit, it would be some other fantasy that motivates them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ultravires/821734.md?page=31)