# Pitting ungrateful and uncooperative communities when faced with crime (Toronto shooting) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542 "2012-07-17T17:05:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/21 "2012-07-18T17:37:21Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > You can easily find all the facts by Googling News. Maybe you should go do that. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/22 "2012-07-18T18:14:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Maybe you should go do that. Tell me where I’m wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/23 "2012-07-18T18:22:05Z")
Putting people in jail because they are justifiably upset at police action is probably not going to fix anything, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/24 "2012-07-18T19:33:16Z")
> [@gunnergoz](#): > > I’ve seen first responders, fire and medics included, wait to enter an area where there have been reports of mass shootings, until the police announce it is cleared of shooters and safe to enter. Is this what happened here? I think that probably had a lot to do with it and add in the mass confusion with over 20 people injured and it’s easy to see how they wouldn’t have gotten to the most seriously injured right away. Unless there is someone there to triage and point them to the ones that need help the most urgently they don’t just know they should walk past the mother with the screaming bullet grazed child (among others). ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/25 "2012-07-19T01:19:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Putting people in jail because they are justifiably upset at police action is probably not going to fix anything, is it? Well, I also said “if it was up to me”. Interpret that as a way of expressing my disgust and not a call to REALLY lock them up. Even though some were arrested for obstructing the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![flatlined](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@flatlined](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flatlined)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/26 "2012-07-19T03:47:34Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > I don’t think she was trying to whoosh you **KarlGauss** it was quite windy yesterday and it was that hot furnace like wind so yes I can see where that would lower peoples tolerance to bullshit levels. Thank you **Moonlitherial**. **KarlGauss** , it wasn’t an attempted whoosh. I know that heat makes people cranky, but I honestly have noticed that day long hot winds seems to make violent crimes go up. This is only anecdotal evidence, collected only by me. I have been reading about the shooting, I’m sorry for everyone involved. The dead, the hurt, the survivors and the emergancy responders who aren’t used to that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/27 "2012-07-19T04:19:39Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It strikes me that, while being randomly stopped is a cause for justified complaint, it does not create a culture in which folks refuse to answer questions concerning a shoot-out at the scene. What makes you think it doesn’t? It makes the cops into the enemy, and people are reluctant to cooperate with their enemies. It will also make people believe there’s no point, probably with justification; racist police are unlikely to try hard if at all to capture criminals who are killing the objects of their hatred. Just as emergency workers are unlikely to try all that hard to help them. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/28 "2012-07-19T16:01:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes you think it doesn’t? It makes the cops into the enemy, and people are reluctant to cooperate with their enemies. It will also make people believe there’s no point, probably with justification; racist police are unlikely to try hard if at all to capture criminals who are killing the objects of their hatred. Just as emergency workers are unlikely to try all that hard to help them. But this is what baffles me. In Toronto, we now have what I’d call “a clear and present danger” that manifested itself with extraordinary intensity in terms of a number of people affected and brazenness of the attacks in past several months. Extraordinary situations call for extraordinary measures. So, if police reacts to a shooting in a given neighbourhood and that neighbourhood happens to be, say 80% of a certain color or ethnicity, it is expected that MOST of the people questioned and/or included in a net of an investigation will be of that color or ethnicity. But what happens is, later on, someone sits down and goes over police reports and comes up with a headline “Police performing racial/ethnic profiling” because – gasp! – about 80% of people questioned or investigated are of a certain color or ethnicity. Statistically correct and numbers are actually documented but context totally missing. I bet couple of months from these days you will see something similar in the printed media that will “stain” police and will “contribute” (retroactively, of course) to “a feeling in the community” that police has “a disingenuous motives”. That’s just crazy! Something has to be done but anything you plan to do will get shot down. Net result – danger not addressed and the only hope is that it will go away. But it doesn’t. Also, last afternoon I was listening to a Toronto 640AM talk-show where a host of the show was talking to a guy (Leslie Roberts is his name) who has a news show later that night and the topic was New York’s “stop-and-frisk” method. His comment on the NYC method was something to the effect… oh, you know, people have rights, and it’s not a good idea to use US methods of dealing with crime here in Canada because we are a different society and we have different approach - i.e. suggesting that due to basic foundations such as social net and what-not in Canada we should not go for the lowest common denominator. Then, in the next sentence he proclaims a “good news” that Toronto crime stats are not really all that bad when you compare to… Chicago! In one sentence he rejects “lowest common denominator” that is US system and then in the next one he’s making you feel good by making a comparison to that same “lowest common denominator”. Incredible stuff… ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/29 "2012-07-19T16:17:46Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > So, if police reacts to a shooting in a given neighbourhood and that neighbourhood happens to be, say 80% of a certain color or ethnicity, it is expected that MOST of the people questioned and/or included in a net of an investigation will be of that color or ethnicity. > > But what happens is, later on, someone sits down and goes over police reports and comes up with a headline “Police performing racial/ethnic profiling” because – gasp! – about 80% of people questioned or investigated are of a certain color or ethnicity. Statistically correct and numbers are actually documented but context totally missing. > > I bet couple of months from these days you will see something similar in the printed media that will “stain” police and will “contribute” (retroactively, of course) to “a feeling in the community” that police has “a disingenuous motives”. But don’t you know it’s _racist_ to ever correlate a certain race/ethnicity with anything negative? If the police are interviewing more people of a certain race/ethnicity it _has_ to be racial profiling, no matter what! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/30 "2012-07-19T16:35:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What makes you think it doesn’t? It makes the cops into the enemy, and people are reluctant to cooperate with their enemies. It will also make people believe there’s no point, probably with justification; racist police are unlikely to try hard if at all to capture criminals who are killing the objects of their hatred. Just as emergency workers are unlikely to try all that hard to help them. Seems absurd, when the whole city is in an uproar over this, that any would seriously believe the cops had no interest in capturing the shooters. Even if the cops were racist as hell. What I’ve been reading leads me to believe that the far more significant factor is fear of being targeted for being a snitch. And frankly, the police in this city are I think substantially less racist now then they have ever been. Its a process similar to the relations between the cops and the gay community - when I was growing up, Torontonians of my age may remember the infamous “Cherry Beach Express”, the bathhouse raids, etc. The general understanding was that cops = violent homophobes. That has changed over my lifetime. The more significant concern is one of public perception generally. For whatever reason, the gun violence in this city _appears_ disproportinately to affect the Black community (I don’t have any figures here, but this is certainly the perception, whether it is true or not). Given that many in that community are recent immigrants from places like Somalia and Jamaca, this fuels communial tensions. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/31 "2012-07-19T17:38:24Z")
> [@flatlined](#): > > Thank you **Moonlitherial**. **KarlGauss** , it wasn’t an attempted whoosh. I know that heat makes people cranky, but I honestly have noticed that day long hot winds seems to make violent crimes go up. This is only anecdotal evidence, collected only by me. And Raymond Chandler. > [@From Red Wind](#): > > There was a desert wind blowing that night. It was one of those hot dry Santa Anas that come down through the mountain passes and curl your hair and make your nerves jump and your skin itch. On nights like that every booze party ends in a fight. Meek little wives feel the edge of the carving knife and study their husbands’ necks. Anything can happen. You can even get a full glass of beer at a cocktail lounge. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/32 "2012-07-19T17:58:10Z")
In many immigrant communities the newcomers bring with them a healthy loathing and distrust for any and all police activity. They may have experienced other interactions, with police, back home, that were so endemic as to be unquestioned and assumed. Raging at them, may simply be the playing out of a script they are familiar with, when shocked and stressed. No, it excuses nothing. And police forces are rare that do not contain both racism and brutality. But maybe Torontonian’s could dial back the, ‘taking it so personally’, just a tad. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/33 "2012-07-19T20:03:12Z")
Where is the outrageous behavior anyway? A woman cursed police when they tried to stop her from finding her children, I’d do the same damn thing. A guy took it on his own initiative to save a gunshot victim and was detained by police, that guy is a hero. People are refusing to talk, with that kind of crowd it is likely few if any innocent bystanders got a look at the suspects. It was a crowd and once the shots flew it was total chaos. Unless you mean the local gossip, I’m sure the police are aware of that. Can you identify an actual person you are hating on? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/34 "2012-07-19T20:13:53Z")
> [@grude](#): > > People are refusing to talk, with that kind of crowd it is likely few if any innocent bystanders got a look at the suspects. It was a crowd and once the shots flew it was total chaos. > Unless you mean the local gossip, I’m sure the police are aware of that. Now this one I can’t agree with. It strains credulity that two shooters both happened to end up at a big neighbourhood party, and none of the bystanders have any clue as to who either of them were or had any useful information to give. Failing to talk to the cops stinks under these circumstances. I don’t care how racist cops have behaved in the past, by failing to talk people who do have information are condoning and abbetting these murders. They are letting down their communities - which are the ones directly affected by the violence - and everyone else in the city, too. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/35 "2012-07-20T02:48:06Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > But this is what baffles me. > > In Toronto, we now have what I’d call “a clear and present danger” that manifested itself with extraordinary intensity in terms of a number of people affected and brazenness of the attacks in past several months. > > Extraordinary situations call for extraordinary measures. > > So, if police reacts to a shooting in a given neighbourhood and that neighbourhood happens to be, say 80% of a certain color or ethnicity, it is expected that MOST of the people questioned and/or included in a net of an investigation will be of that color or ethnicity. > > But what happens is, later on, someone sits down and goes over police reports and comes up with a headline “Police performing racial/ethnic profiling” because – gasp! – about 80% of people questioned or investigated are of a certain color or ethnicity. Statistically correct and numbers are actually documented but context totally missing. Or, perhaps what is happening is what _usually_ happens, and they are just harassing people according to skin color and accomplishing nothing useful. > [@Malthus](#): > > Seems absurd, when the whole city is in an uproar over this, that any would seriously believe the cops had no interest in capturing the shooters. Even if the cops were racist as hell. Seriously? Come on; cops who are “racist as hell” would be deliberately dragging their feet in order to up the death toll. That’s the sort of things bigots do; like ignoring mixed race or homosexual domestic violence in hopes that it escalates to murder, or deliberately being slow on responding to backup for gay cops in hopes that they’ll be killed. Or stand by and watch while a mob lynches someone. If there’s anything demonstrated by history, it’s just how incredibly vicious and evil bigots are. And no, I don’t know if the local cops _are_ that bad or not; but let’s not pretend that “racist as hell cops” wouldn’t do that and worse. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/36 "2012-07-20T04:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > And no, I don’t know if the local cops are that bad or not; but let’s not pretend that “racist as hell cops” wouldn’t do that and worse. I don’t know if you’re right or wrong, but the citizens of Toronto would be staggered to learn it is the case, if you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Dord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@The\_Dord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Dord)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/37 "2012-07-20T07:43:45Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Wait—_whaaat_? We all lost the game! :smack::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/38 "2012-07-20T13:18:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or, perhaps what is happening is what _usually_ happens, and they are just harassing people according to skin color and accomplishing nothing useful. > > Seriously? Come on; cops who are “racist as hell” would be deliberately dragging their feet in order to up the death toll. That’s the sort of things bigots do; like ignoring mixed race or homosexual domestic violence in hopes that it escalates to murder, or deliberately being slow on responding to backup for gay cops in hopes that they’ll be killed. Or stand by and watch while a mob lynches someone. If there’s anything demonstrated by history, it’s just how incredibly vicious and evil bigots are. > > And no, I don’t know if the local cops _are_ that bad or not; but let’s not pretend that “racist as hell cops” wouldn’t do that and worse. What you say may be true when they are out of the glare of publicity. It strains credulity to claim that they would put their own careers on the line simply to wreak racist hatred on the targets of their bigotry in a case which has international attention, with politicians of all camps screaming for results. Again, this is of course assuming that they are in fact a bunch of racist bigots, for which evidence is lacking. I can believe racists will treat people badly, even go out of their way to do so. I can’t believe they will deliberately endanger their careers and expose themselves to all sorts of bad publicity and trouble to do so in the full glare of public attention. That would require them to be both very clever (to so hide their bigotry from the world) very dedicated to bigotry as an ideal, and very, very stupid - all at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/39 "2012-07-20T13:34:42Z")
On the plus side at least our baby shooting killers are less accurate than [Denvers](http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/mass-shooting-at-batman-premiere-in-colorado/story-fnd134gw-1226431167005). ☹ ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542/40 "2012-07-22T13:19:17Z")
[http://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/wokxt/breaking\_news\_11\_people\_shot\_at\_house/](http://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/wokxt/breaking_news_11_people_shot_at_house/) Yeah, build more basketball courts… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pitting-ungrateful-and-uncooperative-communities-when-faced-with-crime-toronto-shooting/628542.md?page=1)